Electronic Groupo Auto Trim ? related to new SRAM Red AXS E1 FD

[madsciencenow]

Ok, so the title is way long but my question is as follows. I'm reading the description of the new SRAM Red AXS FD and it has a line about auto trimming but I don't see this in for the newer SRAM Force AXS FD. Is this accurate? If so, this kinda seems like a massive pile of BS as Shim and if memory serves, Campy have this on all their electronic FDs. Moroever, if my aging memory serves, Shim was incorporating this back on 10 speed Di2 groups. What am I missing here? I'm a little fired about this if how I'm reading this is accurate because the FD shifts on the gen 1 FD for my SRAM Force AXS FD are the weakest link for the whole groupo and super fiddly to set up. Now introducing an auto trim function on your highest end group seems to me an acknowledgement of what I've felt all along which is, SRAM can't figure out how to make a FD that actually works well. How do others see this?

[benb]

I think it's more they could do it all along but knew it cost $XXX,XXX - $X,XXX,XXX in extra engineering or something.

And so they waited cause they knew most of the target market would happily cough up $2,000 for the first version of the groupset and then would all line up to say "Thank you Sir, can I have another for $2000 more?" when this new version came out.

Heck almost all the refinement they are doing on these groups could have been done right on the first version if they had wanted to take the time to do all the R&D up front. Stuff like this new master cylinder design in the Red levers is another example.

The entire model has now shifted to a new version of everything more often so they have less incentive to really polish a group right away like they used to when they were doing a new version after 8-10 years instead of 4-5 like now.

You gotta give them big kudos that it sounds like it's almost completely backwards/forwards compatible with the 2019 Red AXS stuff.

[KonaSS]

How is this any different than any other improvement when a new generation is released from any company?

The aim is always to include features/functions that improve the performance or make it lighter. And they are almost always introduced at the highest group and trickled down.

[prototoast]

My understanding is Shimano had a patent on auto trim that just expired. It's possible Sram could add this to older front derailleurs with a firmware update, but I think your observation is more about product release timing than about Sram deliberately holding out a premium feature for its premium group.

[Dave]

I've installed SRAM FDs 16 times now and never had any problems, I had two Force D1 models and three Rival models that are known to work better and they're cheap. Mine were all used with chain rings with a 16T difference too. The difference is I've never used a SRAM AXS crank. Draw your own conclusions.

I see the new RED as just another improvement, but I've never had any chain rub issues. Right now, I have 3 bikes with Shimano GRX 46/30 cranks and 10-44 cassettes. I can even use the 46/44.

Those who have many problems aren't the best mechanics.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by Dave

Those who have many problems aren't the best mechanics.

Or maybe you're just the Neo of SRAM AXS FD setup. The only one who can see through the matrix and decipher the mysteries of perfect shifting when all others are slaves to the machine, helpless and hapless, feeding on the ouroboros of technological advancement, constant improvement and upgrade envy.

But for real sure seems like the Shimano auto-trim patent has expired. In the post below they mention how possible expiration of the Shimano patents:
https://chinertown.com/index.php?act...owposts;u=5470
https://chinertown.com/index.php?topic=3523.240

A dumbed down "trim" function was already in SRAM for a while, but it was mostly relegated to certain cross-chain configurations and not related to auto-adjusting based off of position of the chain relative to the cassette. I think that SRAM can easily add this function to the older AXS FDs with a firmware update as mentioned, especially since they already added syncro and compensation shifting via firmware.

As for setup, for us mere mortals not named Dave I cannot stress enough the importance of three things:
1-Setup tool
2-Wedge Placement
3-Re-torque all bolts after install, and after some usage

Having utilized all three for my last five AXS installs I've never had any chain drop, noise or interference issues.

[madsciencenow]

Originally Posted by prototoast

My understanding is Shimano had a patent on auto trim that just expired. It's possible Sram could add this to older front derailleurs with a firmware update, but I think your observation is more about product release timing than about Sram deliberately holding out a premium feature for its premium group.

Did not know about the patent so that's helpful and yes, why is this not included at all levels and maybe it will be if a firmware update can indeed fix this was my point. In my opinion, and I'm sure there will be others, this isn't a premium feature as much as it's what should be included.

I was happy to see the backward, to a point, compatibility. I'm hoping that SRAM will embrace this more going forward.

[Dave]

I never use a setup tool, a wedge or a torque wrench. I DO watch the FD cage closely as I tighten the clamp bolt because it's very common for the cage to rotate out of alignment when the clamp bolt is tightened. The solution is to deliberately set the alignment marks crooked, so the marks swing into alignment as the bolt is tightened.

Using a torque wrench on M5 bolts just shouldn't be necessary. If you can't adjust stem alignment or a seat post out on the road without a torque wrench, that's sad.

[madsciencenow]

Originally Posted by Dave

I never use a setup tool, a wedge or a torque wrench. I DO watch the RD cage closely as I tighten the clamp bolt because it's very common for the cage to rotate out of alignment when the clamp bolt is tightened. The solution is to deliberately set the alignment marks crooked, so the marks swing into alignment as the bolt is tightened.

Using a torque wrench on M5 bolts just shouldn't be necessary. If you can't adjust stem alignment or a seat post out on the road without a torque wrench, that's sad.

I mostly agree with your statement above about adjusting w/o a torque wrench. Where it get's tricky is when you throw carbon parts in the mix.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by Dave

I never use a setup tool, a wedge or a torque wrench. I DO watch the RD cage closely as I tighten the clamp bolt because it's very common for the cage to rotate out of alignment when the clamp bolt is tightened. The solution is to deliberately set the alignment marks crooked, so the marks swing into alignment as the bolt is tightened.

Using a torque wrench on M5 bolts just shouldn't be necessary. If you can't adjust stem alignment or a seat post out on the road without a torque wrench, that's sad.

I don't get it Dave, why would you be looking at the RD cage when you are mounting the FD? I can only assume you are confusing derailleurs?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

I don't get it Dave, why would you be looking at the RD cage when you are mounting the FD? I can only assume you are confusing derailleurs?

Sorry, brain fart. Of course I mean FD cage. The rest of the verbage obviously has nothing to do with the RD setup, which is as simple as can be.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by madsciencenow

I mostly agree with your statement above about adjusting w/o a torque wrench. Where it get's tricky is when you throw carbon parts in the mix.

I have integrated carbon bar/stems and all carbon frames and seat posts. Good carbon fiber isn't that delicate. Use a short handled hex wrench or choke up on a long one.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by Dave

Those who have many problems aren't the best mechanics.

Or, per your own implication, are using SRAM cranksets. (Which seems like a reasonable choice given that the groupset is supposedly designed to work together.)

[Dave]

Even with my skills, I couldn't get Specialties TA 44/28 chain rings to work. Shifting ramps do make a difference. The new GRX 12 speed cranks are the best I've used. Campy cranks work too.