World Championships Discussion (With Spoilers)

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by kramnnim

Has anyone who matters claimed Sagan to be the "best one day racer?"

You can't escape that assessment from the cycling press to casual fans to the industry foisting it upon us at every turn.

Which I would understand if it were based in the smallest shred of reality.

Have an age 25 season like Boonen? Totally get it. Smash the Ardennes like Gilbert? Totally on board. Crush the Flandrian calendar likw GvA? Fine, I'll eat crow.

But none of that has happened. The guy can't even ride all the Monuments and you've got people saying he's the most complete bike rider of his generation. Wut?

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

It's not trolling, he's playing the role of Informed Contrarian. Let's compare LeBron and Kobe. LeBron has the eyepopping stats (a la Sagan) and Kobe has the rings (a la GVA). One season, LeBron has a higher scoring average, another season(s) Kobe. But who would argue (although a solid argument could be made) that Kobe is/was a better player.

So, FlashUNC is a Kobe fan.

Given what usually passes for Sagan discussion 'round these parts, I'll take it. Though its the first time I've been slandered as a Kobe fan.

I kid. Peak Kobe would have loved the current space and pace era we're in right now and would make Klay Thompson a distant second in that "best shooting guard in the league" discussion. But your comparison is, I think, a fair one. LeBron will get more holistic counting stats when all is said and done, but I'd wager a bit that Kobe will have more rings when all is said and done.

I do know it'd more fun to be on LeBron's team than Kobe's.

[EDS]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

It's not trolling, he's playing the role of Informed Contrarian. Let's compare LeBron and Kobe. LeBron has the eyepopping stats (a la Sagan) and Kobe has the rings (a la GVA). One season, LeBron has a higher scoring average, another season(s) Kobe. But who would argue (although a solid argument could be made) that Kobe is/was a better player.

So, FlashUNC is a Kobe fan.

I think Kobe and LeBron is a bad comparison to Sagan and GVA.

No question GVA had the better classics season in 2017, but Sagan arguably has the better career palmares in the spring classics and is 4 years younger to boot.

Sagan will need to win a few more monuments to be considered a great classics rider, but even if he doesn't he has done enough already to be considered a great rider.

[MaraudingWalrus]

I think there was some serious abuse of the word literally by Flash..

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

....The other wins literally just one race on the calendar....

Regardless of which one you were talking about [Froome/Sagan], I think it's clear to find that they've each one more than one race on the calendar....I'm as big a fan of ridiculous #HotTakes as Stugotz, but I mean, you can't go around lying like that!

[54ny77]

wow what a race! on that sweeping left hander, sagan made his winning move to being in the right spot. talk about split second decision.

[echappist]

For those interested, Cosmo Catalano has his analyses of both the men's and women's races

http://cyclocosm.com/

[kramnnim]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

You can't escape that assessment from the cycling press to casual fans to the industry foisting it upon us at every turn.

Best bike racer, yes. Best one day racer, no...the press isn't saying that. The casual fan couldn't name more than one or two of the spring classics and has no idea what the monuments are.

[kramnnim]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

The guy can't even ride all the Monuments and you've got people saying he's the most complete bike rider of his generation. Wut?

Not even your "God", Greg, is competitive in all 5.

[jlwdm]

Comparing wins in different eras is more than difficult as many races were more regional and less important than they might be now.

Members talk about the 5th Monument - Lombardy. Makes you wonder what a monument is. This is a late season race that historically was too late to have really strong fields. A great Italian race - won by Italians 68 out of 110 races. Only one Italian the last 8 years after 8 Italian winners in a row. Not a major race for Sagan to worry about.

Just like the Giro was always a major Italian race. 69 Italian winners in 101 years. Four Italian winners the last 10 years after 11 straight Italian winners. Historically the race has not had really strong GC fields or GC teams.

The Vuelta really struggled when it was in the Spring. The switch to after the Tour was made in 1995. This change bumped the World Championships to October resulting in weaker fields for the WC. Riders did not want to keep training so hard late in the season. The WC is also tricky in that there are sprinters courses and various hilly courses. Sagan is fortunate to have had three races in a row that fit him. On the other hand a lot of races fit him.

All races were helped out to some extent when the UCI required the top teams to ride all of the main races. The teams might not always be strong but they are there. You see substantially weaker teams at the Giro and Vuelta for example, compared to the Tour.

Jeff

[echappist]

Originally Posted by kramnnim

Not even your "God", Greg, is competitive in all 5.

to be fair, Lemond did place top 5 in all five monuments, but that was a different time. Kelly, Roche, Hinault, Fignon, Bauer and others have all done well in both grand tours and the classics (and not just the climbing ones)

The specialisation and improved training sussed out the last differences between classics riders and the grand tour contenders.

[MattTuck]

Lombardia has a weird spot on the calendar, but you look at how long the race has been run (since early 1900's), the ghisallo, and the winners -- Merckx, Coppi, Bartali, de vlaminck, Kelly... all in the prime of their careers.

All those things contribute to elevating it to the level of a "monument"... whatever that means. Yes, it is the weird monument, not as prestigious, but it has continuity and prestige, which is really the thing that makes something a monument.

[jlwdm]

Merckx is lucky he rode when he did. If he was riding today he would be attacked on this forum for not being a smart rider. Too often he just went to the front and set a pace that was too fast for the rest of the field - rode everyone off his wheel. Now people would say if he had only used his team more or stayed in the peloton more and saved his energy he would have won even more races.

Jeff

[Elefantino]

All Sagan discussions should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, and so on.

[nooneline]

oh fun, what was a good discussion about a bike race turned into a thread about FlashUNC beating that dead horse again over and over.

[jtbadge]

Originally Posted by Elefantino

All Sagan discussions should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, and so on.

But then what after that?