"Signature" dropouts vs Hooded dropouts

[sirvelo]

I recently had an interesting chat with a discerning gentleman on the topic of dropouts.

As you'd expect from someone who has had an extensive experience with various custom bikes, he had some fairly strong opinions, but what struck me the most was him regarding any builder that uses hooded (breezer) dropouts to be inferior than those using proprietary "signature" dropouts.

His point was that using third-party dropouts didn't quite make the bike "100% custom", and in his view, having a "signature" dropout was what set the so-called "master builders" (Kirk, Sachs, Serotta, Firefly, Vanilla etc etc) apart from the rest. He went on to say that, although he's had a few Pegorettis, he never regarded Dario to be in the same leagues as Kirk or Sachs for this reason.

I think his point is valid to some extent, and of course there is an increasing number of brands now using signature dropouts thanks to 3D printing (No 22, Breadwinner, Stinner, Moots etc).

But I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the builders who don't have a signature dropout to be inferior, especially when there are so many reputable builders such as Baum, English, Mosaic and Bingham using hooded (or variants of it) dropouts.

So - is having a signature that an important and meaningful standard that sets builders apart, or is this another look-at-me-I-know-more-than-you custom bike wankery?

[EB]

The latter.

[Talrand]

I'd never buy a frame from a builder who doesn't mine his own ore.

It's really hard to believe someone who spent tens of thousands of dollars on custom frames might be a teensy bit of an elitist snob.

[prototoast]

Pegoretti does use their own dropout design.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by Talrand

I'd never buy a frame from a builder who doesn't mine his own ore.

THAT was funny!

[StressStrain]

Hooded or Breezer style dropouts are fantastic from a strength and stiffness perspective.

On the other hand, a lot of these 'signature' dropouts are different just for the sake of difference. I guess in this respect they perfectly meet the needs of the kind of bike snob you talked to.

[NHAero]

OK, I just tossed my Bingham in the dumpster.
Could someone provide a list of builders who have signature dropouts?

[Nomadmax]

I feel the same way as the guy in the OP, but it isn't about dropouts. I'd never put a builder in the same class as one who makes the frame AND the fork. Building the frame and throwing on an outsourced carbon fork is a big no for me.

[herb5998]

@OP, was this discerning gentleman a builder?

As eRichie likes to say, the frame is the frame. There are many styles and types of dropouts, and each builder has their reasoning for using specific types. Hooded dropouts, especially when dealing with oversize chain stays provide large surface area for the welds, and no need for tube manipulation which can weaken the structure. If you look at a Pegoretti Marcelo/Round or some of the 1" oversize chain stays on a Bingham/Eriksen, you'll see great examples of applications where a hooded dropout works really well.

For Ti builders, having a hooded dropout also provides a platform to back-purge the weld.

[echelon_john]

Some builders who eschewed plug-in dropouts on the rationale that they lowered the bar and accommodated newbie frame builders who hadn’t made their bones are now using plug-in dropouts and promoting them. The circle of life continues. Nothing wrong with either approach.

[redir]

I don't really care about signature dropouts but I do about functionality and that is the one thing I don't like about the Breezer dropouts on my Moots. It's just a bit more of a PIA to twist on a quick release lever.

[nortx-Dave]

I prefer hooded dropouts and asked Chris Bishop for them. I like the aesthetic.

[charliedid]

Ride bikes not dropouts.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by sirvelo

As you'd expect from someone who has had an extensive experience with various custom bikes, he had some fairly strong opinions, but what struck me the most was him regarding any builder that uses hooded (breezer) dropouts to be inferior than those using proprietary "signature" dropouts.



So - is having a signature that an important and meaningful standard that sets builders apart, or is this another look-at-me-I-know-more-than-you custom bike wankery?

I’d lean against the wankery wall.

A dropout is just a thing, a piece of metal. Shapes and sizes are available to suit most, if not all, applications. I’m not a disc brake guy so what’s out there for these aren’t part of my opinion.

But for everything else, there are forged and cast types, and there are horizontal and vertical types. For modern components, you’d be hard pressed to find forged horizontal types that work as well as verticals (owing to how most skewers are designed.) So unless you’re using CR era equipment, verticals work more effectively.

To paraphrase George Nakashima from The Soul of a Tree, “There are thousand decisions before the first cut is made” referring to a woodworker’s approach to a given task. I believe a framebuilder would consider his choices similarly. It’s less about the part than what you transform it into.

ps

arrange disorder

[Alistair]

What a ridiculous notion. "No True Scotsman"

Faulting a builder for using OTS frame parts when they fit the design? What a crock.

That said, if a builder is using more OTS parts vs hand-made, I'd expect the price to reflect that (all else being equal, which is probably isn't since we're talking bespoke bicycles).