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#16
10-29-2005, 09:30 AM
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Everyone is entitled to like what they like but the tubes, the tubes is an argument that, well, I wouldn't buy in a million years. Why? I dunno, just one fella's opinion, but I've owned all the BigName ti bikes and lived long enough to have ridden the crap out of them. It's not the tubes, it's the design and the fit. There are different notions of design and fit and one of those will suit you. I like the look of Serotta tubes plenty, they being the only NOT ROUND tubes that I would even look at more than once. Whatever it costs to make tubes look different or to butt them this way or that, has NOTHING to do with the ride. The same ride can be achieved on straight-gauge as on butted tubes and I'm not the only fool who thinks so. You save a bit of weight with butted tubes. That is that. Oh, and if you are Clydesdale be sure to get a ti bike like a Serotta because it's plenty,plenty,plenty stiff in the bb in about 99% of cases. dbrk 
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#17
10-29-2005, 11:45 AM
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really? no difference in an ovalized tube when compared to round?
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#19
10-29-2005, 11:56 AM
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Fierte, Concours, Legend
It comes down to personal taste and knowledge/opinion of company but SEROTTA is hard to beat.
Keep in mind - as I have said before - I am VERY biased and this comes from 25 years experience with SEROTTA. There is no reason to go to any other mft from a product point of view for Ti. They have a proven track record in service and warranty, if ever needed. Thru their paint options you can customize to the max. And as Smiley has said the used mrkt is plentiful AND if you have the serial # Steve and the gang can give you specs and history......... Good shoping and I agree the the MOOTS is a nice looking bike also - - A friend I ride with has one. PETE
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#20
10-29-2005, 02:21 PM
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No offense meant to people's preferences on ride. My objection is when people gush about welds, welds welds and don't talk aboiut how the bike fit, handles, etc. I am sure a Hampsten-built Moots would be great for me since the geos would be right (though I would not want a 73.75 HTA). One thing I am curious about though is why you say to get a Ti bike like a Serotta if you are a Clydesdale? If tubes make no difference, then that would mean Serotta gets the design right where others don't, no? Finally, if tubes make no difference and you have made remarks about how you would not be purchasing a Serotta at current prices, is it not the case that a La Corsa or a Concours is a beter value than a $2700 custom Hampsten/Vamoots?
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#21
10-29-2005, 04:26 PM
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I'd go with the Serotta as well, although I have a particular fascination with Moots (but that has as much to do with my love of the Yampa Valley as it does with the the bikes; if you've ever been to Steamboat, you know what I mean). In fact I did go with the Serotta and I could not be more pleased with the bike.
Now, to throw some more lighter fluid on the fire. I've heard from Serotta directly, when I called them on the phone and asked, that the ride of a concourse is as good as the ride of a Legend for riders under 200 lbs. If I remember correctly, it was Kelly who told me that, and at the time, he didn't know how much I weighed. Point 2, I've read official Moots comments on thier website that say, in thier opinion, the straight gauge tubing on the Vamoots has a better ride than the butted tubing on the SL. The advantage that the SL as over the Vamoots is weight (about 3/4 lb if I remember correctly), not handeling or feel. Believe who you choose to believe, but Serotta and Moots are good enough sources for me. If the weight makes a difference to you, go butted; if not, it doesn't matter. So, why buy a legend when a Concours is just as good? If you are under 200 lbs, not for feel or performance. With the Legend you can get the ST rear, which I like. You may also choose the Legend on looks. And although Ben doesn't publish weights, I'm guessing the Legend is lighter, especially in the larger OS type builds. As far as I'm concerned, the Concours is a hell of a bike. Then again, I like value, which is not as much of a concern for many people in this market.
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#22
10-29-2005, 04:26 PM
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As for value and preference, that's less a matter of tubes than of a design, etc., that suits you. My point was that you can achieve the "same" ride with straight gauge tubes as with butted, as others would agree. Buy what you like (and certainly we had better like what we can afford, that helps a great deal) but I see no advantage to the tubes, regardless of the costs or their putative sophistication. dbrk Last edited by dbrk; 10-29-2005 at 04:50 PM.
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#23
10-29-2005, 04:48 PM
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"The advantage that the SL as over the Vamoots is weight (about 3/4 lb if I remember correctly)"
1/4 pound at size 55. I like weight savings as much as the next guy, but that $ per gram trade-off did not work for me.
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#24
10-29-2005, 04:51 PM
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concours not good for clydes
 I've got one (currently unbuilt) with OS tubing, will it just be flexy until I lose weight? Or am I at risk of bending/damaging the frame? The frame was built for me, btw--not a used frame. 
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#25
10-29-2005, 04:56 PM
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Last edited by Bradford; 10-29-2005 at 05:03 PM.
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#26
10-29-2005, 04:57 PM
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Don't mistake me: I think the Legend is a beautiful bike that rides beautifully. I've owned a slew, still own one, maybe even do some revision to it and keep it. Most of the Legend examples I have ridden (many!!) are stiffer than most other titanium bikes, and for my tastes the Legends tend to be a tad overbuilt, a tad too stiff for my preference. But they can be tweaked---and not by the shape of the tube but by the combination of thickness and diameter. All the shaping manipulation is swell, it looks great, but round would do just fine, imho, to create similar effects (stiffness, compliance, tensile strength, elasticity, you name it). dbrk
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#27
10-29-2005, 05:23 PM
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are there any physics/engineering guys that could chime in on the merits (if any) of an ovalized tube?
it seems like a shaped tube effectively increases diameter/strength in a directional manner but it has been a long time since high school. thanks
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#28
10-29-2005, 05:35 PM
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Talk to kelly @ Serotta
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#29
10-30-2005, 02:03 AM
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Companies like Moots, or Bill Holland, or Land Shark, and several others, cater to those who demand absolute perfection as it pertains to ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Because they believe THAT translates (and rightfully so, IMO) into the perfect frame for them. There are those who scoff at the way some folks make a big deal out of the perfect welds found on Moots and Seven rigs. Maybe they're in some sort of denial, focusing on such things as dropouts, or tapered tubes, or whatever, in their arguments. Weak. At best. Some companies, as good as they are, are into the NUMBERS. Production NUMBERS. For the relative small builder, like Holland, and even Potts, et. al., it's a labor of love. And with THAT, you get a little something extra that you won't get from the BIG boys.And that something is ATTENTION TO DETAIL. And I guarantee you'll get the ride you're looking for. These folks will do anything you ask for. And make it happen. That being said, I think my Legend Ti rides as good, or better, than any of my other bikes. And as far as Ti bikes go, I own (or have owned) 'em all. I've always felt that if Serotta had Moots' welder....well, ALL other Ti frame makers might as well fold their tents and go home! GO CHARGERS! Jeff N.
Last edited by Jeff N.; 10-30-2005 at 08:56 AM.
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#30
10-30-2005, 05:54 AM
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Detail
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Detail? Serotta dropouts make for easier wheel changes IMO; Serotta chainstays don't require large Q like Sevens; Kelly B. has been designing frames since Rob V. was likely an infant and has the cache that goes with it. I also appreciate how a Legend is stiffer than other Ti rides I have experienced. And I have multiple 17+ hour rides on the Legend (with Ks), so it certainly does not need to be any more comfortable. That is the type of detail that matters to me. Personally, I think my Legend has beautiful welds, but structural integrity is what matters to me. A bike, to me, is a tool, not a fetish object. If you want a Ti bike not everyone can just buy, why not Tom Kellog? The man knows his stuff, shares dbrk's views on tubes (butting saves weight, and that's it), takes the intermediary of the fitter out of the equation since he will do it himself, etc. Moots, of course, has loads of experience building great bikes. My preference would be to let Steve Hampsten handle the design and the bike would be a guaranteed winner. It's primarily the design and the fit. Kelly B., Steve H., and Tom K. will all deliver a top-notch product. BTW, Go BAYERN! Real football is played outside the U.S: ... 
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