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  #31  
Old 10-05-2017, 09:46 AM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
You're just tense on the rollers. Ride the for a couple hours a day for a couple days and do another video. Higher cadence.

Your position is generally not optimal, but you could be bending your elbows a bit more, lowering your shoulder and neck more, increasing rotation in your hips a bit. You're fighting your own body most of the way so I don't think anyone could make out what might actually be adjusted on the bike.

We could all give you comments on how you should look, but that would be like the old 1950s Italian CONI manuals that prescribed specific fit and positioning based pretty much on how Fausto Coppi looked on his bike. Scarcely scientific or efficient. It blighted development of riding ergonomics and bike positioning for almost fifty years. So I wouldn't solicit "you need a shorter stem" or "raise your saddle" or "you need to move your cleats" comments at this point. Sure, you could possibly improve on one or two of those but you need to work out your own positioning first. There's no magic bullet or instant solution. You don't typically get a good position going until you've put X miles on the bike and stretched and worked out and done all the things you need to get really comfortable on the bike (whether rollers or road). Then it makes more sense to start tweaking hardware. If I were starting you off right now by tweaking hardware, you'd end up buying about four bikes' worth of stems, bars, saddles, crank arms, and everything else. Again, work your own body out first, at least to a better degree than it is right now, and once you really know it's where you want it, it'll be easy to tell what on your equipment is working or not.
Thank you. I was warmed up from my commute home, but not comfortable on the rollers...obviously. What I generally hear you saying is "you could definitely benefit from working with a coach/fitter" and that's helpful feedback.
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  #32  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:46 AM
11.4 11.4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
Thank you. I was warmed up from my commute home, but not comfortable on the rollers...obviously. What I generally hear you saying is "you could definitely benefit from working with a coach/fitter" and that's helpful feedback.
Yes. And you're hunched up and not in a relaxed comfortable position on the bike. Be able to relax and stretch out on the bike and then fit yourself. Otherwise you'll just do it twice. Fitters just work with what you look like on a trainer in a shop or studio. You really want someone to look at you on the bike, on the road, i.e., a coach.
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  #33  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:54 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
Yes. And you're hunched up and not in a relaxed comfortable position on the bike. Be able to relax and stretch out on the bike and then fit yourself. Otherwise you'll just do it twice. Fitters just work with what you look like on a trainer in a shop or studio. You really want someone to look at you on the bike, on the road, i.e., a coach.

By "stretched out" do you mean more like the reach here: https://youtu.be/TPLgEHClqpc ??
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  #34  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:55 PM
11.4 11.4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
By "stretched out" do you mean more like the reach here: https://youtu.be/TPLgEHClqpc ??
You're sitting very upright. Your arms aren't cushioning your ride by bending more at the elbows. Your legs aren't delivering much power for a good part of the rotation because your hips are rotated improperly and you aren't using the strong part of the glutes; probably not using the glutes at all.

Without changing hardware, try riding with your elbows well bent so your head is several inches lower, your torso is closer towards horizontal, and your hips are rotated more. Bending your elbows will probably take out a feeling of being crowded on the bike and make you more supple and more comfortable over longer distances. Lower your shoulders as you bend your elbows; you don't want to have your neck and head drop down between your shoulder blades.

More than that, you really should be working with a good coach. Again, riding on rollers is rarely representative of how you'll be riding on the road. You also don't have any resistance on your legs with rollers; you want to see how you look on the bike when pedaling in a gear with high wattage.
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  #35  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:22 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
You're sitting very upright. Your arms aren't cushioning your ride by bending more at the elbows. Your legs aren't delivering much power for a good part of the rotation because your hips are rotated improperly and you aren't using the strong part of the glutes; probably not using the glutes at all.

Without changing hardware, try riding with your elbows well bent so your head is several inches lower, your torso is closer towards horizontal, and your hips are rotated more. Bending your elbows will probably take out a feeling of being crowded on the bike and make you more supple and more comfortable over longer distances. Lower your shoulders as you bend your elbows; you don't want to have your neck and head drop down between your shoulder blades.

More than that, you really should be working with a good coach. Again, riding on rollers is rarely representative of how you'll be riding on the road. You also don't have any resistance on your legs with rollers; you want to see how you look on the bike when pedaling in a gear with high wattage.

Not engaging my glutes was a problem for me running too; and something the fitter I saw beginning of the year identified. But until you said so, I didn't connect the "rotating hips" part. At some point I think I got in my mind that anchoring sitbones and not rolling onto your soft bits meant an upright pelvis, and I can see now that I am not getting that right. I'll try what you suggested and do some video while on a smart trainer pushing some watts in a few days. I am working with a coach, but he's a friend and just getting started, so I'm a pro-bono case. I probably need to search out some 1:1 sessions with someone who focus on that sort of thing (pretty sure that exists here in town).

Thanks again for the thoughtful and constructive feedback!
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  #36  
Old 10-06-2017, 07:15 AM
macaroon macaroon is offline
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You won't be able to rotate your hips properly because your seat looks WAY too high.
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Last edited by macaroon; 10-06-2017 at 07:18 AM.
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  #37  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:29 AM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Originally Posted by macaroon View Post
You won't be able to rotate your hips properly because your seat looks WAY too high.
Dropped my saddle 2+cm and moved it back 1+cm on the rails for my commute in this morning. HUGE difference in being able to rotate and flex my arms more. I think I was confusing dropping my heel with having my saddle too low, and raised my saddle to keep from dropping my heel...seems pretty not smart now that I think about it.

Thanks for the tips. More to come when I get some significant miles in this weekend.
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  #38  
Old 10-06-2017, 11:29 AM
11.4 11.4 is offline
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Whoa. Two centimeters plus one on setback is a huge amount.

Your YouTubes don't show a refined position, but you also aren't rocking back and forth a lot on the saddle, which you'd be doing if the saddle was really too high. And I don't think you reported saddle pain (as in chafing, abrasion, as well as bruising or impact pain) which would also be a side effect of excessive saddle height.

I don't think you're really positioned ideally yet, but there's a basic rule in experiment design that says you only change one thing at a time. If you keep changing this and that, you won't know what made the difference. Further, you have to ride for a couple weeks with decent mileage before any position feels or looks comfortable for you. I'd suggest you dial back on all the reactive changes and just ride. Get enough miles in so you've stabilized to a certain level of flexibility, strength, comfort, etc., and then make single changes to try out position differences.

I'd agree that your saddle might look a little high, but saddle height can change for any rider by a centimeter or more based solely on how you rotate your ankles. So I'm not willing to say yet that you categorically have too high a saddle or whatever. Once again, get your riding style down first, then fine tune the equipment.
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  #39  
Old 10-06-2017, 11:39 AM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
Whoa. Two centimeters plus one on setback is a huge amount.

Your YouTubes don't show a refined position, but you also aren't rocking back and forth a lot on the saddle, which you'd be doing if the saddle was really too high. And I don't think you reported saddle pain (as in chafing, abrasion, as well as bruising or impact pain) which would also be a side effect of excessive saddle height.

I don't think you're really positioned ideally yet, but there's a basic rule in experiment design that says you only change one thing at a time. If you keep changing this and that, you won't know what made the difference. Further, you have to ride for a couple weeks with decent mileage before any position feels or looks comfortable for you. I'd suggest you dial back on all the reactive changes and just ride. Get enough miles in so you've stabilized to a certain level of flexibility, strength, comfort, etc., and then make single changes to try out position differences.

I'd agree that your saddle might look a little high, but saddle height can change for any rider by a centimeter or more based solely on how you rotate your ankles. So I'm not willing to say yet that you categorically have too high a saddle or whatever. Once again, get your riding style down first, then fine tune the equipment.
It was probably closer to 1.5cm down and 1cm back. Looking back on the fit sheet from earlier in the year, my fitter had me at 81cm saddle height. I was at 84cm before lowering it this morning, plus I think the setback I'm at now is closer to what it was with that lower saddle height - will do some measuring there as well.

The SMP Forma seems to really fit me well. Even with the saddle height I was at I had zero chafing or soreness on a hard 65mi ride last weekend.

I'm hoping for 60-80mi tomorrow or Sunday, so we'll see how the new position feels with that..
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  #40  
Old 10-06-2017, 12:54 PM
macaroon macaroon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
Whoa. Two centimeters plus one on setback is a huge amount.

Your YouTubes don't show a refined position, but you also aren't rocking back and forth a lot on the saddle, which you'd be doing if the saddle was really too high. And I don't think you reported saddle pain (as in chafing, abrasion, as well as bruising or impact pain) which would also be a side effect of excessive saddle height.

I don't think you're really positioned ideally yet, but there's a basic rule in experiment design that says you only change one thing at a time. If you keep changing this and that, you won't know what made the difference. Further, you have to ride for a couple weeks with decent mileage before any position feels or looks comfortable for you. I'd suggest you dial back on all the reactive changes and just ride. Get enough miles in so you've stabilized to a certain level of flexibility, strength, comfort, etc., and then make single changes to try out position differences.

I'd agree that your saddle might look a little high, but saddle height can change for any rider by a centimeter or more based solely on how you rotate your ankles. So I'm not willing to say yet that you categorically have too high a saddle or whatever. Once again, get your riding style down first, then fine tune the equipment.
Agree to a certain extent. 2cm is a a helluva lot to drop in one go.

But, an excessively high saddle doesn't necessarily mean you'll rock on the saddle; often what'll happen is the rider will drop off to one side to reach the pedal, which'll then compromise the opposite side/leg.

The OPs pedal stroke didn't look particularly smooth though, a sign of a saddle too high.

I think a video showing some high cadence work, along with a hard effort under resistance (is that possible on rollers?) would be the giveaway.
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  #41  
Old 10-06-2017, 11:28 PM
ultraman6970 ultraman6970 is offline
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Where is that video????

Is that picture the op??? if its the op... dude you are way too high... I would start using lemond formula just to start to get a number that will be kind;a ok with which you can start working. But if you have been using the saddle that high for the longest time you might feel wrongly low... dude in the picture is at least 2 cm too high. Check out lemond...

Whats your seat back? like 10 cm?

Btw never understood how some guys dont get numb nuts riding that high. Some fight the problem going super high and putting the tip of the saddle like 3 cm lower instead of going flatish, plus saddle all the way to the front... the other problem of problems with posture and saddle height is saddle sores...

PS; just saw the video... yup, saddle too high IMO aswell.

Last edited by ultraman6970; 10-06-2017 at 11:33 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-07-2017, 12:19 AM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
Where is that video????

Is that picture the op??? if its the op... dude you are way too high... I would start using lemond formula just to start to get a number that will be kind;a ok with which you can start working. But if you have been using the saddle that high for the longest time you might feel wrongly low... dude in the picture is at least 2 cm too high. Check out lemond...

Whats your seat back? like 10 cm?

Btw never understood how some guys dont get numb nuts riding that high. Some fight the problem going super high and putting the tip of the saddle like 3 cm lower instead of going flatish, plus saddle all the way to the front... the other problem of problems with posture and saddle height is saddle sores...

PS; just saw the video... yup, saddle too high IMO aswell.
He is I and I am him. As said above, worked on the setback and height today. Things feel much better. I'm going to put a proper setback post on it tomorrow and see where that gets me. And probably drop the saddle a hair more. As it was, I PR'd a 1/4mi 16% average grade climb on it going home without going too deep into the hurt box; and I could definitely feel the effects when powering on the flats and rises of rotating the hips forward and engaging the glutes. I don't know how I got myself so out of whack, but things are coming back together nicely.
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  #43  
Old 10-07-2017, 03:52 PM
m4rk540 m4rk540 is offline
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Clean, get a larger sized Colnago and go from there. Based on what I'm seeing you're a tall dude who needs less reach and more stack. If Ernesto can't sort you out, focus on mountain biking. And if you can't find a bike that's 100% comfortable just remember that race bikes are not hybrids and that the Lord blessed you with impressive stature; I'm only 5'9".

Last edited by m4rk540; 10-07-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:26 AM
ultraman6970 ultraman6970 is offline
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I'm not in love of super small frames and tall guys that is seeing all over the place but IMO the OP frame sizing looks ok to me... I was watching both videos again and sizing looks ok... tad like at the limit but yes kind'a agree, maybe an extra cm could help but there is a detail tho... he said he got the saddle lower and that he is able to round (from what I understood) the pedaling more. I would love to see a video of the new position and a picture of the bike set up.

Your pedaling is more fluid now?
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  #45  
Old 10-09-2017, 06:26 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Swapped to the 21mm setback Deda Superzero and that resulted in my saddle going back another 10-12mm (so almost 2cm from starting), which I might still bring it forward on the rails a bit - 5mm. I put a 120 stem on (same rise) to compensate on the reach. I rode ~40mi and then brought my seat up 4-5mm. Overall did 60mi today and 7K ft of climbing. Pedaling felt fluid. No saddle issues or soreness anywhere other than tired legs and hamstrings feeling a bit overworked (maybe from the position change?). Still pass the "no-hands don't eat your stem" test, but also still feel like I'd do better with a 1cm shorter TT and 2cm shorter HT to get more weight on the front.
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