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  #16  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:07 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Originally Posted by Blown Reek View Post
If you go to someone who (supposedly) knows more than you do, puts you in the range that you should be, then everything else is in your head. Most people aren't the unique flowers that they think they are [...] You just need to be convinced that's where you are supposed to be. You might be close, you might be way off... but once you know, then you won't hope to "get lucky" with some "magical" bike that (for some reason) works for you.



Most folks might scoff at the $250 cost, but I guarantee that's less than you're losing on bikes that don't fit and parts you can't use. And once you know your numbers, you know your numbers.

Agree with all that. I think the problem with my last two fits ("Core 4" - adapted Retul fit system) is they were fitting me to what I brought in the door, not telling me what I'd fit well on and what to look for...
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2017, 05:06 PM
dave thompson dave thompson is offline
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Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
<snipped>.......
Anybody have a fitter recommendation in Portland, OR that is on the independent side? I know there are some good store-affiliated fitters, but I'm a little leery of going in to get fit and being steered to something on their floor - I want to pay for the service without any "goods" attached.
Try Michael Sylvester, Bicycle Fitting Services, is highly regarded as one of the very best in the country and he’s right there in Portland.

Last edited by dave thompson; 10-02-2017 at 05:11 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2017, 05:07 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Originally Posted by dave thompson View Post
Try Michael Sylvester, highly regarded as one of the very best in the country and he’s right there in Portland.

BikeGallery?
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  #19  
Old 10-02-2017, 05:13 PM
dave thompson dave thompson is offline
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Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
BikeGallery?
Bicycle Fitting Services. I used him to get a fit for my Kirk. A really good guy.
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  #20  
Old 10-02-2017, 05:20 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Originally Posted by dave thompson View Post
Bicycle Fitting Services. I used him to get a fit for my Kirk. A really good guy.

Cool, I'll look it up. I think he was BikeGallery's fitter when I worked there (20yrs ago!)...
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  #21  
Old 10-02-2017, 05:26 PM
dave thompson dave thompson is offline
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He may have been affiliated with Bike Gallery back in the day. I used him in ‘03 and he had his own stand-alone studio then.
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2017, 10:19 AM
tv_vt tv_vt is offline
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Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
...If anything, I'm maybe more rearward biased than I should be: when I'm really putting the watts down on the flats with my hands in the drops, it almost feels like there isn't enough weight on the front end, like it's getting flighty up there. I also feel like I have to lean forward and probably grip the tops too much when seated climbing. Maybe both of those are functions of too much reach/stack...
Sounds like you should try shortening your stem a bit (130 to 120), or sliding saddle forward a hair to get a little more weight on the front end. Front end should be rock solid when you're in the drops on the flats. And check the tilt of your saddle in regards to leaning forward for seated climbing.

Does sound like you're a bit too far back, though.

I had a similar experience this summer - my bike felt a bit squirrelly in the front end during climbing and winding downhills. Slid the saddle forward maybe 5mm at most and just that subtle shift put more weight on the front wheel and calmed things down a little. With lots of climbing (this was during a trip to the Alps), getting my seat forward and more on top of the pedals felt good, too.

Last edited by tv_vt; 10-03-2017 at 10:23 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-04-2017, 11:55 AM
11.4 11.4 is offline
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I've fit plenty of riders, but I'm usually reluctant to change the hardware until I know the rider is really in the right place. Most riders, especially those that don't seem to get comfortable after a fit or a new bike, seem to have problems adjusting their bodies to a good position. Hip rotation is wildly inefficient. Pedal stroke is abysmal (I'm not arguing one pedal stroke versus another, but a rider that can't generate 250 watts in their pedal stroke but can be coached to deliver 350 in an improved one isn't starting with an efficient pedal stroke). Lack of back flexibility. Bad head position. Slumped shoulders. And so on. Each of these issues amounts to 1-3 cm variation in stem length, bar drop, saddle setback, whatever. And changing the hardware simply memorializes an issue that needs to be addressed with the rider and her/his own body. We look for a quick fix in a fit when the real issue has to be addressed within our own bodies.

I'm not just hurling out a philosophical point of view here. If you watch pros being fitted, it's a many-step process in which the rider's positioning (irrespective of the bike itself) is analyzed for flexibility, impingement, and other issues. Only when true limitations on position have been defined (versus those that can be retrained, such as flexibility limitations) is the bike included in the analysis.

With this kind of analysis, you are likely to graduate through a series of fits on the bike. One rider I know well shifts the saddle back and up by almost a centimeter over the season, drops the bars by almost 15 mm, rotates the bars to lower the levers, and tweaks the cleats. Come a long cold winter, he regresses and starts at least part of this process all over again. Cold weather reduces his flexibility for winter riding, as does trainer riding. And every year, age shifts things a bit too. But it all starts with the body. The bike is an afterthought once you've determined how your body should really fit.
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2017, 02:16 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
I've fit plenty of riders, but I'm usually reluctant to change the hardware until I know the rider is really in the right place. Most riders, especially those that don't seem to get comfortable after a fit or a new bike, seem to have problems adjusting their bodies to a good position. Hip rotation is wildly inefficient. Pedal stroke is abysmal (I'm not arguing one pedal stroke versus another, but a rider that can't generate 250 watts in their pedal stroke but can be coached to deliver 350 in an improved one isn't starting with an efficient pedal stroke). Lack of back flexibility. Bad head position. Slumped shoulders. And so on. Each of these issues amounts to 1-3 cm variation in stem length, bar drop, saddle setback, whatever. And changing the hardware simply memorializes an issue that needs to be addressed with the rider and her/his own body. We look for a quick fix in a fit when the real issue has to be addressed within our own bodies.

I'm not just hurling out a philosophical point of view here. If you watch pros being fitted, it's a many-step process in which the rider's positioning (irrespective of the bike itself) is analyzed for flexibility, impingement, and other issues. Only when true limitations on position have been defined (versus those that can be retrained, such as flexibility limitations) is the bike included in the analysis.

With this kind of analysis, you are likely to graduate through a series of fits on the bike. One rider I know well shifts the saddle back and up by almost a centimeter over the season, drops the bars by almost 15 mm, rotates the bars to lower the levers, and tweaks the cleats. Come a long cold winter, he regresses and starts at least part of this process all over again. Cold weather reduces his flexibility for winter riding, as does trainer riding. And every year, age shifts things a bit too. But it all starts with the body. The bike is an afterthought once you've determined how your body should really fit.
Thank you for the very thoughtful response. I wish there was a way to give you Reddit-Gold on here and have this post memorialized...

I agree completely with your approach. And yet am incapable at this point of doing such a process by myself, on myself. So I need some help.

My next step will be posting a side-profile video of myself riding rollers on my Pegoretti and see what you all think at least of where things sit with that. And I can compare that then to the videos I've already posted of myself on the Serotta, Holland, and Moots I used to have. I think I have one on a much smaller Merlin too.

I'm hoping this thread is helping others in addition to everything it's giving me
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2017, 04:31 PM
11.4 11.4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
Thank you for the very thoughtful response. I wish there was a way to give you Reddit-Gold on here and have this post memorialized...

I agree completely with your approach. And yet am incapable at this point of doing such a process by myself, on myself. So I need some help.

My next step will be posting a side-profile video of myself riding rollers on my Pegoretti and see what you all think at least of where things sit with that. And I can compare that then to the videos I've already posted of myself on the Serotta, Holland, and Moots I used to have. I think I have one on a much smaller Merlin too.

I'm hoping this thread is helping others in addition to everything it's giving me
Videos or stills will certainly help. What you really need is to find a very experienced coach who can work with you. The coach will help you evolve your position and then help you size your bike to suit. Fitters do just a small isolated part of what you need; a good coach does a bigger part of it and thus has more chance of getting it right.
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  #26  
Old 10-04-2017, 06:20 PM
kingpin75s kingpin75s is offline
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Lots of good stuff here. I will simply add that I would focus on my desired saddle setback first and then let the other pieces fall in place. You may like the setback you have, but you may have the opportunity to change it if you can move forward (generally) and still maintain proper weight distribution.

I prefer as little setback as I can get away with for a road bike. For road bikes I want my weight distribution as forward as possible while still allowing me to not put weight on my hands. This means I should be able to easily pull my hands off the bars while riding and just hover them above without significantly engaging my core. Thats how I check if I am close. Lots of good info out there. I can share some links if interested and I think Ti Designs has had some good thoughts on the subject on this forum as well.

Far too many bikes out there with dogmatically setback posts IMHO. I do not have a road or gravel bike with any setback posts at this time.

YMMV and all that. GLWFit.
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  #27  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:58 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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So confused by fitting myself

https://youtu.be/AqOSZSEz5IA

Little video - feedback welcome - first time on the rollers for a few months, so go easy.

Zero setback post, 130 x -17 stem.
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2017, 09:58 PM
Andy sti Andy sti is offline
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I think your seat is too high and set back too far. Pedal stroke looks really uncomfortable.
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  #29  
Old 10-04-2017, 10:34 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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So confused by fitting myself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy sti View Post
I think your seat is too high and set back too far. Pedal stroke looks really uncomfortable.

Part of the choppy stroke is the rollers. But saddle height could be a thing - what makes you say the setback looks too far? Genuinely curious...only way to learn.
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2017, 11:30 PM
11.4 11.4 is offline
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You're just tense on the rollers. Ride the for a couple hours a day for a couple days and do another video. Higher cadence.

Your position is generally not optimal, but you could be bending your elbows a bit more, lowering your shoulder and neck more, increasing rotation in your hips a bit. You're fighting your own body most of the way so I don't think anyone could make out what might actually be adjusted on the bike.

We could all give you comments on how you should look, but that would be like the old 1950s Italian CONI manuals that prescribed specific fit and positioning based pretty much on how Fausto Coppi looked on his bike. Scarcely scientific or efficient. It blighted development of riding ergonomics and bike positioning for almost fifty years. So I wouldn't solicit "you need a shorter stem" or "raise your saddle" or "you need to move your cleats" comments at this point. Sure, you could possibly improve on one or two of those but you need to work out your own positioning first. There's no magic bullet or instant solution. You don't typically get a good position going until you've put X miles on the bike and stretched and worked out and done all the things you need to get really comfortable on the bike (whether rollers or road). Then it makes more sense to start tweaking hardware. If I were starting you off right now by tweaking hardware, you'd end up buying about four bikes' worth of stems, bars, saddles, crank arms, and everything else. Again, work your own body out first, at least to a better degree than it is right now, and once you really know it's where you want it, it'll be easy to tell what on your equipment is working or not.
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