Question on gearing and group pacelining

[tctyres]

I'm turning to you guys with a bunch of pacelining experience on a query I got after Saturday's ride. The group is set to get everyone pacelining evenly over long distances. It's essentially a weeks long training program through the end of May. One comment was that maybe I was out of sync because of my gearing: a cx70 46/36 on the front with a 5800 11/28 on the rear. I didn't have any trouble holding speed or drafting. The problem was in my "smoothness."

OK. I can handle that feedback. I'm not really sure that was the problem, though. I think the "look" of my steel bike (a Black Mountain road) was more problematic, but I have no idea.

The whole thing was a bit of a Y-chromosome macho-disaster, imo --- lots of surging, bad line picks, poor communication, a group leader who could have toned it down. Mentally, I was out of it before the ride was half done. I kind of want to delete it from my strava. I think being out of it mentally was more of the issue here.

So you guys who have the experience with choice of gears, is the mid range on the 46-36 problematic? Should I solely be riding 53-39 on these rides? What could be the hurdles I'm facing? I've got extra cranks and rings here, so switching is relatively easy.

[Peter P.]

Your gearing is irrelevant.

You need a low enough low to get up hills.

You need a high enough gear for sprints/downhills.

Sounds like your pedaling style or your paceline riding skills just plain suck.

Without seeing you in action, I can't tell if it's one, or both.

[Ralph]

With a 46 big ring in front....and a cassette starting with 11, you should have no problems being in an equivalent gear to someone using a 50 (50-34) or someone using a 52 or 53 big ring. If you are riding on flat terrain, the 11-28 may have larger gaps between rear cogs than ideal for flat terrain riding....but I doubt if that was your problem. Sounds to me like there was a bias against your set up....gears and maybe bike. Maybe just racers who don't understand math. Gears are mostly gears....however the math works out. Frankly....I think for most riders.....who use cassettes starting with 11, a 46 large ring makes a lot of sense. Very few riders can spin out a 46X11 on anywhere near flat terrain. so it's plenty tall enough. Find someone else to ride with. Riding should be enjoyable.

[shovelhd]

When I do the Wednesday Night Worlds, I use a tight cassette, an 11-23, and I run a mid compact. I like the 1-2 tooth spacing in the back, as it helps keep my cadence steady when we're flat out.

That said, unless you were over your head in a group that was too fast for you, optimal gearing is a luxury, not a necessity. Did you let gaps open in front of you? How were the riders in front of you? Jittery? Wiggling side to side? Were any of them on the rivet? And what was with this ride leader yelling at people? What were his issues? Was he encouraging or demeaning? Finally, who talked to you about your setup? What was their concern? Did they think you were over your head, or just not conforming to what they think you should be?

Roadies can be really arrogant pricks sometimes. Don't take it to heart. Just realize that they may be poor communicators, and were sincerely trying to tell you something. Do the ride again this week and report back.

[Ti Designs]

Really? You think that problems with a group staying in a paceline is an equipment issue? I love this forum...


I've found there are certain things that everybody thinks they do well, but almost nobody can do well without some form of learning process. I've also found that lots of people get insulted when told that they can't do something. Given a new way to insult people, I started taking note of what people can's really do...

There are some things humans are very sensitive to. In sound, pitch is one of them. You can easily tell 88 different notes on the piano. Volume is one of those things your ears adjust to, so any change in volume is only detected relative to the change made. On the bike, power output works the same way. If you're riding along at 200 watts then you decided to bring that down to 150 watts, without a power meter you have no way of knowing what that feels like - your muscles have adapted to 200 watts, anything below that is nothing.

The combination of motors that can't really regulate output and the dynamics of a paceline, not to mention most people's idea of how a paceline works, and you have a disaster. In teaching groups of new riders how to paceline (that's what I do), the first thing to get across is one very simple concept, and one very simple device to make that work. The paceline itself goes at one speed - a speedometer is all you need. To start with, that speed should be lower than the slowest rider can handle. I have my riders pull off to the left and rotate back. If you're on the right side line, doesn't matter if you're the first rider or any other position, the speed is the same. No speeding up, no slowing down, no gaps between riders. The riders pulling off need to slow down to get to the back of the line. It seems pointless at lower speed, but people learn how the paceline works, and if done right, where the lead person pulls off as soon as the last person who pulled off is clear, it becomes a full paceline (where riders are sheltered both on the way up the right side and back down the left side). If you can't make this work at slow speed, you can't make it work.

I have this theory that any four guys in lycra is a bike race, so this keep it slow thing is never going to work. For this problem I have an easy solution - rip their legs off. If a new rider can't help but surge in a paceline full of other new rider, I'll put them in a paceline full of fast guys. The job of the fast guys is to keep the new guy in (they were once new riders, they know the drill), but give them an understanding of what it's like to be the slowest guy in the group. I didn't say weakest, I said slowest, there's a huge difference. The fast guys know to hit the front and rotate off as soon as they're clear. The new guy thinks "I'm at the front, I need to work hard", and he tries to stay up there. They blow up, move over and go shooting out the back. That's where one of the fast guys puts a hand on his back and pushes him back into the paceline. It only takes 2 or 3 times for this to happen before they get what's happening.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Your gearing is irrelevant.

You need a low enough low to get up hills.

You need a high enough gear for sprints/downhills.

Sounds like your pedaling style or your paceline riding skills just plain suck.

Without seeing you in action, I can't tell if it's one, or both.

What he said.

[tctyres]

Thanks for your comments. There's a lot of good feedback here.

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Your gearing is irrelevant.

...

Sounds like your pedaling style or your paceline riding skills just plain suck.

Without seeing you in action, I can't tell if it's one, or both.

I think my paceline skills went on holiday when I saw the bs that was going on on the line, so yeah, I admit that I could have done better. I spent a large fraction of the ride thinking, "Why did he do that?" One of the leaders was quiet and rock solid the entire time --- no issues. I've ridden with him before. He called the ride "jagged."

Originally Posted by Ralph

Very few riders can spin out a 46X11 on anywhere near flat terrain. so it's plenty tall enough. Find someone else to ride with. Riding should be enjoyable.

I have no problems descending with a 46x11. Your final comment is exactly why I swing a leg over a frame.

Originally Posted by shovelhd

When I do the Wednesday Night Worlds, I use a tight cassette, an 11-23, and I run a mid compact. I like the 1-2 tooth spacing in the back, as it helps keep my cadence steady when we're flat out.

That said, unless you were over your head in a group that was too fast for you, optimal gearing is a luxury, not a necessity. Did you let gaps open in front of you? How were the riders in front of you? Jittery? Wiggling side to side? Were any of them on the rivet? And what was with this ride leader yelling at people? What were his issues? Was he encouraging or demeaning? Finally, who talked to you about your setup? What was their concern? Did they think you were over your head, or just not conforming to what they think you should be?

Roadies can be really arrogant pricks sometimes. Don't take it to heart. Just realize that they may be poor communicators, and were sincerely trying to tell you something. Do the ride again this week and report back.

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Really? You think that problems with a group staying in a paceline is an equipment issue? I love this forum...

You had some great lines in here.....

This was rolling terrain and a few steep climbs and descents. The descents were nothing major. Instead of using a speedo, they want us to use "feel" and group dynamics. It's a different style of learning. At a fixed speed, I'd have no problem. I can hold that and adjust my cadence. Unfortunately, that's not what we're doing.

No one was talking or pointing out obstacles. I got pulled over potholes numerous times.

Gaps opened up in front of me a few times (4?) in 60 miles. I'm not sure whether I should keep the wheel or the "feel." I'm trying to keep the effort the same. It just seems like the front riders surged. This happened a couple times, and rather than pull the guys behind me out of whack, I just gently upped my cadence to close. One time it worked flawlessly. One time was a complete c/f when the surgey guy hit a hill and dropped his cadence and speed like a rock. Funny now that I think of this, 3 of those surges were the same guy at the front --- super fit, rides a trainer and started quoting ftp and power stats to me, didn't seem to know how to handle his bike on the road in a group.

There was at least one guy who had fitness problems. He was choking for the final 20 miles. I certainly wasn't the fittest, but I didn't have any problems with breathing at all, even on the front. When I was pulling, I could have been talking, and there were still fitness problems behind me.

I think the leader guy's tone was the problem. He was pissed off that he was riding with people who clearly knew what they were supposed to do but weren't doing it. There was another leader who was encouraging and helpful even in the face of adversity. There was another who said little (rock solid guy), led by example, but knew exactly what was going on when I talked to him. The ride was 9 or 10 guys, three of them leaders.

The quiet leader emailed me after the ride with a few comments, including to consider riding a different bike such that the "CX" gearing might be an issue. I certainly wasn't in over my head.

I'll definitely do the ride again. I don't think I'm very confident in pacelines, and it's easy to get me flustered. That's why I'm doing these rides: I need help and instruction with group dynamics.

[djdj]

Sounds like you need a different group (and I don't mean gruppo).

[ultraman6970]

Interesting... the little I could understand was that you can't hold the bike steady??? Would you please post a picture of your bike? asking because to me it could be that you have a fit problem, to be more precise probably the handlebars too high.

As for the guys not pointing out the holes on the road, well... that is super relative because not everybody does that, my advice with that is riding and looking at the road at the some time it is a skill that you have to master and probably that's the reason they ride w/o talking either so you focus and learn. Learn by looking at the other riders, if you cant figure this out just ask why they do this and that, sure they will answer or ask here. BTW my best guess is that your group has ex racers, you can learn a lot from them but look and imitate them.

If the guys dropped you, dont worry because that always happens even if your macho ego told you before that you were good enough, advice... no matter how good you think you are, always somebody that is better and looking fatter that you will show up at the rides So do not feel bad and take it easy, at some point of the training you will be able to catch up with the, but is not going to happen from here to tomorrow... it takes some time.

Enjoy your rides man

ps: forget your strava, speed, or whatever other gadget that can eat your head... just go and ride with them.

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by djdj

Sounds like you need a different group (and I don't mean gruppo).

I think there are something like 60 riders total and they break us out into 7 groups. It's a club thing. It's unlikely I'll ride with any of the same guys next week.

[PepeM]

I'm glad none of the groups I ride with are like that. Didn't know group riding could be such a chore.

Can't see how gearing could be the issue here. Dysfunctional group being dysfunctional seems to be the issue.

[shovelhd]

If you only let a gap open four times in 60 miles, I'd say you did exceedingly well, especially with a varied group. Ideally you'll be behind the same rider the whole time, but it rarely works out that way, with rest stops, traffic controls, etc. If I'm with a group that's all over the place, I'll try and coach the troublemakers (sic), but if they refuse, I mark them as ones to stay away from. No use ruining my ride because of selfish people.

The guy quoting power needs to STFU and watch his speedometer. Like Ed, that's how I coach a paceline, by speed. The faster the paceline gets, the more important speed becomes, because power is not linear. I tell riders to glance at their speedometer often. Don't stare at it, but glance at it. When you are one rider off the front, note your speed before the rider in front pulls off. Once he/she does, roll on your power to match the speed. Don't surge, don't jump, don't stare at the computer. Note the speed and stick it for the length of your pull. If it's a social paceline and the road tips up, then it's ok to slow down and match effort (or power) instead. Don't drop the speed too much unless it's a grade more than 2%-3%. Usually on climbs, pacelines will break up to allow everyone to climb at their own pace, then regroup at the summit.

Bottom line, it doesn't sound like this has anything to do with your gearing.

[jasonification]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Really? You think that problems with a group staying in a paceline is an equipment issue? I love this forum...


I've found there are certain things that everybody thinks they do well, but almost nobody can do well without some form of learning process. I've also found that lots of people get insulted when told that they can't do something. Given a new way to insult people, I started taking note of what people can's really do...

There are some things humans are very sensitive to. In sound, pitch is one of them. You can easily tell 88 different notes on the piano. Volume is one of those things your ears adjust to, so any change in volume is only detected relative to the change made. On the bike, power output works the same way. If you're riding along at 200 watts then you decided to bring that down to 150 watts, without a power meter you have no way of knowing what that feels like - your muscles have adapted to 200 watts, anything below that is nothing.

The combination of motors that can't really regulate output and the dynamics of a paceline, not to mention most people's idea of how a paceline works, and you have a disaster. In teaching groups of new riders how to paceline (that's what I do), the first thing to get across is one very simple concept, and one very simple device to make that work. The paceline itself goes at one speed - a speedometer is all you need. To start with, that speed should be lower than the slowest rider can handle. I have my riders pull off to the left and rotate back. If you're on the right side line, doesn't matter if you're the first rider or any other position, the speed is the same. No speeding up, no slowing down, no gaps between riders. The riders pulling off need to slow down to get to the back of the line. It seems pointless at lower speed, but people learn how the paceline works, and if done right, where the lead person pulls off as soon as the last person who pulled off is clear, it becomes a full paceline (where riders are sheltered both on the way up the right side and back down the left side). If you can't make this work at slow speed, you can't make it work.

I have this theory that any four guys in lycra is a bike race, so this keep it slow thing is never going to work. For this problem I have an easy solution - rip their legs off. If a new rider can't help but surge in a paceline full of other new rider, I'll put them in a paceline full of fast guys. The job of the fast guys is to keep the new guy in (they were once new riders, they know the drill), but give them an understanding of what it's like to be the slowest guy in the group. I didn't say weakest, I said slowest, there's a huge difference. The fast guys know to hit the front and rotate off as soon as they're clear. The new guy thinks "I'm at the front, I need to work hard", and he tries to stay up there. They blow up, move over and go shooting out the back. That's where one of the fast guys puts a hand on his back and pushes him back into the paceline. It only takes 2 or 3 times for this to happen before they get what's happening.

sage advice. I love this forum!

[John H.]

I have been doing a road group ride on the worst bike and worst gearing possible.
Rolling terrain. I am on 34/50 with an 11-36 and WTB Riddler 700x37mm mixed terrain tires at about 45 psi.
I just realize that I have to spin really high rpms sometimes, and 85 rpms sometimes.
Also- the bike reaches terminal velocity more quickly than other bikes- it simply will not go faster.

It sounds to me like your group is not smooth. Some pulling too hard- some pulling almost attack style, big surges on rollers, etc.
This is tough- especially if it is a public ride- You can't really teach on a public ride. Everyone has their own ideas.

You did identify a really smooth rider. That being the case- reshuffle and try to ride behind him. At least it will help your cause.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by tctyres

It just seems like the front riders surged. This happened a couple times, and rather than pull the guys behind me out of whack, I just gently upped my cadence to close. One time it worked flawlessly. One time was a complete c/f when the surgey guy hit a hill and dropped his cadence and speed like a rock. Funny now that I think of this, 3 of those surges were the same guy at the front --- super fit, rides a trainer and started quoting ftp and power stats to me, didn't seem to know how to handle his bike on the road in a group.

So you mean a fun ride where there are tactics involved - I love those. Guys surge because they don't see a danger of overextending themselves. The best tactic there is put them on the defensive. Go with the surge and counter as soon as he eases off. It's a game of poker, you need him thinking that you could have the winning hand...

I was in Florida a few weeks ago in a ride with two guys who were clearly well above the rest of the group. One of them was throwing down attack after attack while guys were getting launched out the back. At one point I found myself isolated with the two fast guys, so took up the ticket punching position - on the back, always picking up the wheel of the rider who just took a pull. They weren't happy with me being there, but at the same time they couldn't both drop me at the same time, so it was either going to be a solo break, or they had a passenger. After the mid point in the ride one of them started a series of short sprints to see who was coming along. I took up the wheel of the other strong rider, knowing I would have a free ride back up. After about a half dozen sprints I put in my own attack. I had no plans of leaving the group, but the guy who had been putting in all the attacks pulled up next to me and looked over to gauge if I was serious.

Originally Posted by tctyres

The quiet leader emailed me after the ride with a few comments, including to consider riding a different bike such that the "CX" gearing might be an issue. I certainly wasn't in over my head.

Beyond a certain cadence it's hard to keep the efforts smooth. Even on my trainer workouts where the resistance is rock steady, my high cadence work goes up and down by as much as 10 RPMs. A bigger gear just makes things smoother...

Originally Posted by tctyres

I'll definitely do the ride again. I don't think I'm very confident in pacelines, and it's easy to get me flustered. That's why I'm doing these rides: I need help and instruction with group dynamics.

One of my favorite parts of coaching is teaching group dynamics and tactics. I bring my riders into a few different group rides, their job is to observe first - no hitting the front for the first 15 minutes, just watching the other riders. Some will struggle every time the road tilts up, others won't. Some will kill themselves at the front, others will sit in... Their first job is to figure out the defensive stance - how to not get dropped. Once they've learned that they can always fall back on it, but they can also try other things. Most rides like this have one of two goals, either use the group to push the average speed, or drop as many people as possible. The average speed rides are all about using the whole group. Hills become a challenge because you would like to have the added power on the flats, but that means keeping the slower riders on the hills in. The drop everybody else rides are a matter of staying in defensive mode until it's time to go.