OT: End of life, Family conflict, damned if you do and if you don't, thought?

[bicycletricycle]

I think that it is important to speak the truth (as you see it) in important matters like this. It may have a cost that is tough to accept but I also believe that it is a moral obligation to do so. If thoughtful considerate people stay quiet we all loose in the end. To the extent that it is possible it is also important to keep an open mind towards your brother in law, he is obviously in pain and afraid, he also needs care and attention.

Obviously these things are extremely tough to negotiate and compromises will have to be made, do what you think is right so that you can be proud of your actions.

My mother was in a coma for a few weeks a while ago, she was almost dead, it was very hard, I did what I could for myself and for others in the family ( I was not always pleasant, I have had a very hard relationship with my mother). I know that I made mistakes but I know that at the time I did the best that I could and that is comforting now.

Good Luck

[Aaron O]

The more I've thought about this...the more I think your best path, and your responsibility, is to say/do nothing other than to support your wife. This is her fight. It's her father...regardless of how close you are. It's her call...and I think I'd do nothing other than support your spouse...counsel as asked...help as needed.

My sister is tough...we barely speak now and go through periods of not speaking at all. Until very recently (illness related), she was essentially estranged from our parents. She's a pain, but I also love my niece, and my crap with her hurts me and it makes a relationship with my niece difficult. It would be easy for me to say she's a schmuck (and she is), and I don't care if she's angry...etc...but it's also not true. I'm going to have to deal with her...and I still hold hope that someday things might change.

I would be very careful with the relationship with your brother in law...no matter how strained...and I'd be mindful that choices I made might effect your wife's relationship with her brother, regardless of how tenuous it is. I don't think I agree with the "screw him, do what's right for the dad" sentiment as expressed...I think my dad would prefer suffering if it meant less of a rift.

This is personal, but a while ago my father asked me to be executor of his estate, including over a trust for my niece. We're not talking huge dollars...but it's a year or two of tuition. He didn't trust my brother in law, or sister, with the money. I don't like saying no to my dad...but I said no...because had I said yes, it would kill any chance at a relationship down the road. So we'll pay the estate fees.

[Climb01742]

Another possible way to look at the situation:

If you believe in karma, situations are never random and never products of luck, not good or bad luck. We are where our actions have led us. We are presented with situations as opportunities to learn and grow.

Could you step back from the situation, step back from what you see as your role and your wishes, and see the entirety of each person's role and place in the situation. Is there an opportunity to learn something here, maybe something uncomfortable or challenging? Is there a person in the situation who needs your compassion and understanding?

I know it's hard (I'm crappy at it) to put our own sense of right and wrong aside, to set our desires aside, and see something painful as a chance to change and grow. To see a moment radically differently. Is there something like that chance somewhere in this difficult moment?

Simply put, life might not be doing something_to_ your family right now, but doing something_for_your family. I don't think the universe is cruel. It's a stern but loving teacher. Can you see a lesson here somewhere?

I hope all your family find a door to peace.

[93legendti]

I am sorry for your situation. Terribly sad and awfully stressful.

You're right, it is a lose-lose situation.

The brother in law is in a different place.

I've been thru a version of this scenario and tried talking to the wife of the son who is not being "realistic". Didn't help.

If a person isn't acting rationally, you can't reason with them.


If you go over his head, he will respond in kind.


I don't see a "winning" path, I am sorry to say.

[beeatnik]

*

[bluesea]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

The more I've thought about this...the more I think your best path, and your responsibility, is to say/do nothing other than to support your wife. This is her fight. It's her father...regardless of how close you are. It's her call...and I think I'd do nothing other than support your spouse...counsel as asked...help as needed.

My sister is tough...we barely speak now and go through periods of not speaking at all. Until very recently (illness related), she was essentially estranged from our parents. She's a pain, but I also love my niece, and my crap with her hurts me and it makes a relationship with my niece difficult. It would be easy for me to say she's a schmuck (and she is), and I don't care if she's angry...etc...but it's also not true. I'm going to have to deal with her...and I still hold hope that someday things might change.

I would be very careful with the relationship with your brother in law...no matter how strained...and I'd be mindful that choices I made might effect your wife's relationship with her brother, regardless of how tenuous it is. I don't think I agree with the "screw him, do what's right for the dad" sentiment as expressed...I think my dad would prefer suffering if it meant less of a rift.

This is personal, but a while ago my father asked me to be executor of his estate, including over a trust for my niece. We're not talking huge dollars...but it's a year or two of tuition. He didn't trust my brother in law, or sister, with the money. I don't like saying no to my dad...but I said no...because had I said yes, it would kill any chance at a relationship down the road. So we'll pay the estate fees.

Thanks for sharing.

Kirk007,
Keep your immediate family close, take care, and good luck in your choice.

[weisan]

The harder you push, the bigger the fight he's going to put up...to save face. He IS the Guardian...after all.

My sense is the situation will resolve itself fairly quickly - beyond you or your brother-in-law's direct control.

So, first, recognize you are not in the position to dictate terms, soften your stance, back away, give him some space.

Secondly, know that your father-in-law will be the one deciding ultimately, and he will.

[ultraman6970]

Sorry this is happening to you, but happens and more often that we could think... I agree with many but is hard to be in the same spot and advice because everybody is different.... what I would do because I been doing stuff like this for a very long time with my family and my wife family members... get out of the way, support your wife and if you can set her aside aswell because she is suffering aswell and let the inlaw to cut the cake. Even if it sounds cold, get her out of the circle and maybe easier than you think because she assumed the ending already.

Honestly when you have an old person that dies or is knocking the door's death I take it really calmly because we are talking about the cycle of life but with young people man... it hurts me so much that you can't imagine.

There's no worse def than the one refusing to listen and those ones you have to leave them alone, at some point they realize what is going on and be there for those def ears you know.

Hope everything work out for the best of everybody later on... and sorry if I sounded tad cold but that have worked for me well in situations like that.

[Jad]

This must be so hard and I'm sorry you need to navigate the situation. I hear a lot of experience and care from the rest of the board; I'd just add that all you can do is what you think is right for the most vulnerable person.

I also think that holding back in the interest of preserving a relationship could, as some have suggested, ultimately become toxic to that relationship. Of course, communicating about this with her brother is easier said than done. Take care and act with compassion. Good luck.

[Tickdoc]

Man, sorry to see you have to deal with this. My wife dealt with a similar situation with her mom.

It's tough to support your wife through this and not step in. Everyone is drained, sad and emotionally charged at the same time.

After her moms passing things got worse. She (my wife) was executor but her brother stepped in and mismanaged all of their mother's monies since he was listed on her accounts. Much arguing and taking of sides took place, money was squandered, and my wife eventually stepped aside.

They didn't speak for three years.

Hang in there prayers to your family.

[2LeftCleats]

Is there a hospital ethics committee?

[Kirk007]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This is a special place indeed.

Much wisdom here, and it helps to examine things from all of the different perspectives offered here.

So many issues tangled up in a ball, personal, familial and societal. My father in law had, at least until the past few years a remarkable courageous life, from surviving the Battle of the Bulge to meeting his wife, who was a war refugee, having been kicked out of her home country of Guatemala due to her uncle being a German National accused of spying, and found volunteering at a Red Cross station in Germany; after the war pursuing her hand long distance when he was back home in North Carolina and she was back in Antigua. The stories go on and then the tale's final chapter - 8 years in a memory facility, eroding away, reduced to a shell unable to perform the most basic of bodily functions independently, waiting for the chapter to close. There must be a better way for these end of life scenarios than what we subject our elderly to.

As I've thought about it, I have thought about karma and purpose and what could be the final purpose of this brave man's last days. For his son, I do believe it offers an opportunity to perform a selfless act, to put, for once, someone else"s needs before his own. For me and my wife, I am not sure; but I'm working on it. Perhaps for me its being willing to reach out to a virtual community of bicyclists; to put aside a stubborn self reliant streak, to willingly accept the grace of others and to become comfortable admitting to that. After all, I'm a guy and we all know how much we hate to admit that we are lost and ask for directions ; )

[54ny77]

Beautiful words.

The Greatest Generation indeed.

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This is a special place indeed.

Much wisdom here, and it helps to examine things from all of the different perspectives offered here.

So many issues tangled up in a ball, personal, familial and societal. My father in law had, at least until the past few years a remarkable courageous life, from surviving the Battle of the Bulge to meeting his wife, who was a war refugee, having been kicked out of her home country of Guatemala due to her uncle being a German National accused of spying, and found volunteering at a Red Cross station in Germany; after the war pursuing her hand long distance when he was back home in North Carolina and she was back in Antigua. The stories go on and then the tale's final chapter - 8 years in a memory facility, eroding away, reduced to a shell unable to perform the most basic of bodily functions independently, waiting for the chapter to close. There must be a better way for these end of life scenarios than what we subject our elderly to.

As I've thought about it, I have thought about karma and purpose and what could be the final purpose of this brave man's last days. For his son, I do believe it offers an opportunity to perform a selfless act, to put, for once, someone else"s needs before his own. For me and my wife, I am not sure; but I'm working on it. Perhaps for me its being willing to reach out to a virtual community of bicyclists; to put aside a stubborn self reliant streak, to willingly accept the grace of others and to become comfortable admitting to that. After all, I'm a guy and we all know how much we hate to admit that we are lost and ask for directions ; )

[Ray]

After reading through a number of responses since my own, I'd just add a reiteration of what some others have emphasized - your primary role here is to support your wife however SHE wants you. Regardless of your own feelings. If she wants / needs you to help her advocate her position with her brother and other siblings, do that. If she just needs you to help her through her own feelings and she can be her own advocate, just do that. While you no doubt have your own feelings and your own relationship with her father and her brother, she's primarily the one who has to balance her Dad's needs against her brother's current desires and the longer term relationship with him.

I fully believe what I said earlier - putting your BIL's feelings over concern for what their father is going through will not help the overall relationship in the long term. I also believe that's HER call. And if she chooses a different approach than you would (despite you providing HER with your input), you should just help her with that and only play an advocacy role for her position if she clearly wants you to.

My wife gave me plenty of support and help when I went through it with each of my parents and my very different siblings and I did the same for her with her Dad and her own sibling dramas (and will do the same when her Mom's time comes). So my earlier advice stands, but only to the extent it's in the service of supporting your wife in her dealings with her family. If you and she aren't on the same page, let her know how you feel, but don't be a free agent with her siblings - she has to play that role and you primarily just need to be there for her...

-Ray

[mnoble485]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

This obviously won't help the OP, but I am not my wife's POA for this issue, her best friend is. I thought it best to have this decision, made in accordance with her wishes, in the hands of someone a little more removed.

She is mine...she's told me multiple times she'd have no problem pulling the plug on me.

This. I didn't want to put this decision on my wife. My best friend has POA a for me and we have discussed this many times.

Mike