Steelman Closing Shop?

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by vqdriver

well, i have no dealings with brent or steelman, but i've only heard good things about the man and the work. wishing him the best.

here's a favorite of mine ever since i first saw it. i don't know how much of this aesthetic is the framework and how much is the paint, but i can't stop staring.

That is a great looking bike!

[retrogrouchy]

Originally Posted by waynesulak

I have found in my dealings with very small ventures that the owners are much better at their product or service production than they are at running a business. I believe this is especially true of an artisan type business like frame building. Many in the bike building business are more oriented to the artistic side of things more than record keeping and accounting. As a result often mistakes and misunderstandings in order details are common.

The builders that succeed are often those that run their business well.

Wayne

That is very, very true. Most artists are not great businesspeople, and I would say that the 'best' framebuilders are artisans that create products that approach art, especially the top-tier one-person shops. I have a custom frameset that came from one of the guys that people have been very, very unhappy with recently. It was like mating elephants to get it (takes two years to produce results, and involves much kicking and screaming). It's quite a nice piece of functional industrial art, though, imo. YMMV.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by Uncle Jam's Army

Mavic Reflex NOS rims.

Excellent, thank you!

I have wanted a steelman since 2000 but even the 525 was way out of my price range.

[dekindy]

According to his post in the VS he has had a change of heart and will stay in business and begin accepting orders again.

This is good news for folks that still want to purchase a frame from him.

I am not even going to say anything about the customers whose deposits he returned because that would be negative.

[William]

Originally Posted by dekindy

According to his post in the VS he has had a change of heart and will stay in business and begin accepting orders again.

This is good news for folks that still want to purchase a frame from him.

I am not even going to say anything about the customers whose deposits he returned because that would be negative.

First I put him on the list, then I take him off the list, now I have to put him back on??? Dude, make up your mind!!






William

[AOW162435]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Thats'a good question.

The reason is simple - so both sides have some skin in the game. I ask for a $300 to hold the clients place in line - that is their skin. Mine is that I'm making cash flow and business plans based on the promise of that future business. Without predictable and reliable cashflow there is no way a builder can plan and do anything more than survive day to day.

For a short period many years ago I put people in the queue without taking an even small deposit - I just took them at their word. Unfortunately no matter how well intended they were and how much they really wanted a bike when I contacted them and told them is was time to go they bailed - one after another. Lesson learned. So now I ask for that $300 and it keeps to impulse purchases that will never be followed through on to a minimum and now I can plan ahead and run my business much more efficiently........and the customer is assured a spot in the queue. We both have something at risk.

dave

Dave,
Well said.


Andreas

[Joachim]

I already see some f'builder pedestal behavior going on. I could be totally wrong, but didn't he have a legal binding contract when he took the deposits? Giving it back was the right thing to do but then starting back up again? I wonder what would happen if this was any other business? I'm all for "finding balance" in your life or doing something different, but if you want to run a business, run a business. Especially if you are going to run the same business twice.

[redir]

Originally Posted by J.Greene

Because customers can be flakes or have problems arise too. I'm having to sell privately a frame and fork that a client had to back away from at the last minute when his business imploded. I don't feel like it's right to sell a new frame for cheap when I'm delivering frames at full cost. This frame is a unique color making it even harder to place. There has been real costs to my efforts up until this point. Because I'm a newer builder, and keep my backlog small, I don't currently ask for a deposit, but I think a modest sum to show the buyer's intentions and to hold the spot in line is more than fair.

I used to build guitars professionally. I still build but it's not my main gig. I would always require that the customer pay a deposit for the cost of materials. Essentially they covered the cost of wood and hardware. That way if they did go bust on me then it was only my time that mattered. And I've had a few customers just walk away from projects that they invested 5 or 6 hundred dollars in.

I think it's acceptable to get a reasonable deposit.

[Keith A]

Well if anyone wants a bigger Steelman track frame, there's one on eBay right now...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-90s-...item4ab481491f

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by Joachim

I could be totally wrong, but didn't he have a legal binding contract when he took the deposits?

I think those who want to apply contract law to this situation need to take a step back and evaluate their views.

#1 I'm not sure contract law applies, and think that it does not, but for kicks, let's say that it does.

#2 Should he have kept the deposits, hired a bankruptcy lawyer, and let those who wanted their deposit back, hire their own lawyers and get in line with the bankruptcy proceedings? Then he could've re-incorporated and gone about making frames, just as he'll be doing today. It would be all legal and tidy that way. But unethical.

#3 By accepting their returned deposit, they agreed to cancel their "contract".

By all acccounts he closed his business and was done. This wasn't an attempt to extort those on his waiting list into paying more. I think the way he handled it was ethical and honest. I can't believe that people anywhere could suggest otherwise. I'd rather do business with ethical people, than those who use the law as cover for their unethical behavior.

Legal, but unethical

[kentileguy]

Looks like his website was updated yesterday, there is a new "bike of the week" entry. Its stunning:
http://www.steelmancycles.com/Bike%2...he%20week.html

[chismog]

Originally Posted by kentileguy

Looks like his website was updated yesterday, there is a new "bike of the week" entry. Its stunning:
http://www.steelmancycles.com/Bike%2...he%20week.html

Smokes! That IS stunning.

[54ny77]

Framebuilders take note: a simple 1-2 page contract that spells out each parties' rights & responsibilities would address sooooooo much of the bad issues that surface during this type of conversation. Whoever does it, or announces that they already do, I think would really gain a lot of respect and biz for it.

Personally, other than dealing with maybe 2 or 3 long-established folks in the biz in the usual custom build "trust" process, I would never go the custom route without it. Too much headache otherwise.

p.s. that blue & white Steelman is pretty darned sweet looking. Replace that seat binder bolt with a nice non-stripped one, would ya! Sheesh, details!

Originally Posted by mistermo

I think those who want to apply contract law to this situation need to take a step back and evaluate their views.

#1 I'm not sure contract law applies, and think that it does not, but for kicks, let's say that it does.

#2 Should he have kept the deposits, hired a bankruptcy lawyer, and let those who wanted their deposit back, hire their own lawyers and get in line with the bankruptcy proceedings? Then he could've re-incorporated and gone about making frames, just as he'll be doing today. It would be all legal and tidy that way. But unethical.

#3 By accepting their returned deposit, they agreed to cancel their "contract".

By all acccounts he closed his business and was done. This wasn't an attempt to extort those on his waiting list into paying more. I think the way he handled it was ethical and honest. I can't believe that people anywhere could suggest otherwise. I'd rather do business with ethical people, than those who use the law as cover for their unethical behavior.

Legal, but unethical

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Framebuilders take note: a simple 1-2 page contract that spells out each parties' rights & responsibilities would address sooooooo much of the bad issues that surface during this type of conversation. Whoever does it, or announces that they already do, I think would really gain a lot of respect and biz for it.

And when the contract is broken (by either party), bring in the lawyers? A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.

99.99999% of the time, when the framebuilder can't deliver and returns the deposit, the customer is cool with this.

99.99999% of the time, when a deposit it paid, and the customer walks from it, the framebuilder takes it no further.

When seeking a framebuilder, I'll always choose the ethical guy first. If a builder wants to enter into contract negotiations, even a simple one, about a bike frame, then that's a dang good sign that I'm talking to the wrong guy.

A few years ago, I put a deposit on a frame, then lost my job after it was built, but before it was delivered. I decided it was an excess I could do without. The builder found another buyer who was happy to take my place. With a contract, I suppose he could've sued me? As with Steelman, the situation wasn't ideal, but everyone walked away just fine, with no lawyers involved. And when the time comes, I'll be back.

[firerescuefin]

Unreachable for weeks/months, miss dates, string people along...send back deposits, people post your demise on your facebook site...then, "hey, I have had a change of heart" back open for business....check out my bike of the week!

Good luck with that business model.

I like to see people put there demons behind them and I hope it happens, but some credibility needs to be reestablished.