Looking for advice re: unresponsive framebuilder

[ultraman6970]

If there's paperwork signed a demand can be issued, right?

[donevwil]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

"Hey sorry I can't build your bike. I'm dying. Here's your parts back and good luck with another builder."

Took me 5 seconds to type that. This guy has had two years of being jerked around.

Assuming he's the only customer, I agree with you. Two customers and that's 10 seconds and an entirely different scenario.

[Louis]

Do builders put deposits in escrow?

I bet very few do, and the money's spent to either pay the rent or to fund current operations. Then, when for whatever reason the frame can't be built on schedule, there's no money left to return. The builder's too embarrassed to admit that to the customer, plus he's hoping to eventually get the frame built, so he keeps trying to stretch things out longer and longer. Eventually the builder just shuts down communications and hopes the problem goes away.

[alexstar]

Originally Posted by Louis

Do builders put deposits in escrow?

I bet very few do, and the money's spent to either pay the rent or to fund current operations. Then, when for whatever reason the frame can't be built on schedule, there's no money left to return.

Sound business practice would be to put the deposit in escrow, but I'm afraid your scenario is probably pretty common. We've been in this scenario before with certain builders who have vanished from the stage. Exeunt, pursued by mob.

[rwsaunders]

You're dealing with theft by deception if you want to get to the root of your issue with your builder. Was there an agreement in place when you placed your deposit? A string of emails certainly helps but an agreement would be more meaningful to you moving forward. Don't throw away any receipts for your parts either.

With the builder having your parts however, I can see where you're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. It's one thing to lose a $500 deposit, but add in the value of the parts and I can see where you can easily be out another $1,000 or more.

Any chance that you might have friends in your old town that would be willing to collect your parts for you? If so, give the builder a call and let him know that a friend of yours is going to stop by and pick up your parts.

Ask about a convenient date and time and "oh by the way, could you have my refund check ready too? Better yet, here's my PayPal address so you can gift my refund today. I'm sure that you feel bad about this whole mess so let's get this behind us and move on with life. I do have to say however that you're not giving me many options and I really don't appreciate how I've been treated or understand why. What if somebody treated one of your family members this way? I think that you'd be very upset. I really don't want to have to go to the local magistrate and make this any more difficult that it needs to be, but I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to have my property returned to me as I've worked very hard to be able to pay for this bike. I know you understand that and I'm giving you the chance to do the right thing."

Best of luck to you...put your emotions to the side and be relentless as you didn't place yourself in this position, he did and he's responsible for his own actions.

[Muffin Man]

Originally Posted by whatwolf

I like to keep things in writing when it comes to complicated transactions, but I will attempt to get him on the phone before taking things further.

If you want to keep records for dealing with this, you could probably record your phone call pretty easily so that you do have a record of it, and can cite it in the future.

[Bruce K]

Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.

Maybe a demand letter from an attorney would get things moving if the other options people have suggested don't work.

BK

[Ray]

I'd out him immediately - I'd have done it a long time ago. It accomplishes two things. First, it MIGHT get your process moving, maybe he'd actually get to work on a frame (doubt it at this point), but at least maybe you'd get your parts back? Deposit is probably shot.

But even if you assume your parts and deposit are gone for good, think of it as a public service. How would you feel if you didn't out him and heard this same story from two or three other forumites in the coming months who started an ill-fated process with this builder because you hadn't outed him? If you can't get any results for yourself, you might be able to save other people around here from suffering through the same experience.

I wouldn't do it out of spite, but on the off-chance you'll get something back as a result and to definitely give fair warning to others here who might be thinking about using this person...

-Ray

[jpw]

is the builder still taking new orders and deposits?

that would be HIGHLY disingenuous if the OP's account of events is accurate, and little better than fraudulent trading imho.

[ldamelio]

Someone said it best above - give him or her a call to discuss - you can accomplish a lot more with the spoken word than with e-mail in this situation.

If no satisfaction then, I agree with a short deadline to name names. It's not 'outing' -that has a negative connotation on your part implying that you're exposing something private and personal to be mean-spirited. If you were having the same problem with Trek or Specialized, no one would say you were 'outing' them. It would be a community service to the members here and likely save others the same aggravation. I think framebuilders are admirable craftsmen, but there's nothing sacred about the profession that should prevent public knowledge of a bad deal. Bad doctors, clergy, etc. are and should be exposed. Nothing different here. I type all this knowing that there's two sides to every story. We are assuming the OP has held up his end as a client.

At this point, also e-mail the builder with a link to this thread.

BTW, some framebuilders that I know of escrow. Others use serial payments to cover cash flow as the project moves along. These are the ones that I and friends have dealt with.

Nice, even-tempered discussion here. Good to see.

Good luck.

[mtb_frk]

Originally Posted by jwess1234

OP--you are very restrained and kind to the builder. Hope the good karma pays off for you.

Seems overly taboo to make any negative comments about builders here. I understand some restraint, but it's excessive. Why should a builder be shielded far more than say a SRAM or ZIPP if they didn't deliver or come through on a warranty? The bikes people buy on here are expensive and buyers know what they are getting into and in turn this lets the cream of the crop builders really shine (and in turn demand higher prices etc).

This.
If this was any other service you were having provided, oh like a kitchen remodel would you be so patient? I wouldn't be.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by whatwolf

I've held off on posting here about this for a long time now, out of respect for the builder, but I think enough time has passed without any response/action from him that this type of outreach is warranted.

Long story (not-so-short), I was fitted for a custom 650b road bike in December of 2013. I was told his wait at that time was 4-6 of months. I paid my deposit at the fitting and worked hard to gather nearly all the parts for the build as quickly as possible, as he said he would need them in order to start working.

I gave a bunch of very nice parts to him (White Industries, Paul, Berthoud, etc) in early spring 2014. He's had them ever since, and obviously giving them to him was a mistake but I had no way of knowing the process would take as long or be as frustrating as it has been.

I moved across the country in Sept 2014 and he said he'd ship the frame and parts to me in a few months, no problem.

After no evidence that my frame was actually close to completion, I asked for all my components back in March 2015. Request was denied due to his health problems.

In June I got an email asking to confirm how many bottle mounts I wanted (3) which we had gone over at least twice before then.

In September 2015 I asked for all my parts back again and this time he said he would ship them back except the fenders which he needed for fitting to the frame. I said OK.

In October I followed up, having not received a tracking number or any parts, and he said "I promise by the end of the week"

Now it's been another 4 months and he has stopped responding to my emails.

I need advice. Should I out him online? It feels wrong but I have also been jerked around for two years and would rather not have other people go through this. The ideal resolution for me at this point would be to just get all my stuff and my deposit back and chalk it up to experience. I don't expect to ever see this frame.

Thanks all. Sorry for the bummer topic.

I'd ask for my deposit back, in full, first. If no soap, then 'social media' can be very powerful..

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by Ray

I'd out him immediately - I'd have done it a long time ago. It accomplishes two things. First, it MIGHT get your process moving, maybe he'd actually get to work on a frame (doubt it at this point), but at least maybe you'd get your parts back? Deposit is probably shot.

But even if you assume your parts and deposit are gone for good, think of it as a public service. How would you feel if you didn't out him and heard this same story from two or three other forumites in the coming months who started an ill-fated process with this builder because you hadn't outed him? If you can't get any results for yourself, you might be able to save other people around here from suffering through the same experience.

I wouldn't do it out of spite, but on the off-chance you'll get something back as a result and to definitely give fair warning to others here who might be thinking about using this person...

-Ray

THIS. Two Years???

[93legendti]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.

Maybe a demand letter from an attorney would get things moving if the other options people have suggested don't work.

BK

This varies by State.

[peanutgallery]

Since this a 650 bike, I'm envisioning an instagram feed full of a bearded dude preening over cups of coffee and that sort of thing

When email and calls fail...
How about a post on his social media along the lines of, "glad you have the time to live such a full life, how's my stuff coming along"? My comment would be more direct, but you get the drift