Looking for advice re: unresponsive framebuilder

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

I should start a parody of radavist called recidivist, where I take pictures of non-existent bike frames that were never delivered.

Would actually be funny to create a brand called Reformation Cycles, and invite all these guys to build under that brand, but someone else handles the finances/customer relationships.

Is it that frequent of an issue?

Stunned to see Mr. Pacenti of all people was ripped off for 5K...that's unbelievable...

[rugbysecondrow]

This topic has been taboo in the past. I created a Feedback Thread back in 2010 in an effort to provide a resource for those looking to make a decision regarding builders. It was shouted down and closed. For better or worse, this is a different place now. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864

Anyway, I have been through a process similar, but not as protracted. It was not expecting the process to be as emotionally draining as it was. Buying a custom frame turned from a daydream to a reality, to a nightmare. The deception, lies, excuses...they just get old.

I provided a report/review of my experience with the builder (Paul Taylor) in an effort to inform others what to expect if they do business with this person. . I sent him what I wrote. You would not believe the number of people who PM'd me with similar issues, afraid to come forward. Many feared retribution. Many thanked me for helping them avoid him. Many said they had issues with the same builder and apologized for not speaking up sooner.

With money, dreams and effort on the line, I think it is better to honestly critique the company and the person, and allow the customer to make an informed decision. I would rather the good builders get the contracts rather than the bad, so you are actually helping more than one party by coming forward.

With all that said, it is your decision. Cheers

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by rugbysecondrow

Many feared retribution.

meaning what exactly?

[BobbyJones]

I can't even understand what the questions are about. I'm looking at it simply as:

1) Your deposit got stolen

2) So did your parts.

Not counting what I'm reading as an "amicable" delay, you've been ripped off for almost a year. It's one thing if you're a que sera sera kind of person and want to write it off, but you obviously feel ripped off- because you have been.

Contrary to OP's thoughts and our legal system's technicalities, its criminal. Do something about it and stop feeling like a victim. If you don't want to go through the hassle, at least speak up so the builder doesn't have the opportunity to do the same to others.

Good Luck.

[Ken Robb]

I had similar situations with 3 builders. Eventually I got my $$ back in each case. One time it was just a matter of asking for it when the frame was 1.5 years late and still not built. The other two times were more trouble and pretty much cured me of "needing" another custom frame.

I would order from Kirk, Hampsten, Strong, Dave Wages, Waterford, MOOTS and other well-known good guys whose names escape me at the moment. One of my biggest problems was with a builder I thought I knew but he got way off-track with business and personal problems. I put quite a few miles on a borrowed R. Sachs bike that I loved riding and looking at but I'm way too old to live long enough to get a new one built for me.

[Cat3roadracer]

She did say that the new frame would be shipped across the country to her new residence in Southern CA. That excludes Mid West, West Coast frame builders.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by tele

Eventually this builder got called out here and across the hall and is no longer in the industry.

Really? ATH? In my estimation, an unlikely occurrence. That goes against the grain of anything I have ever read with respect to that forum's editorial bent. There is no greater pro-industry/builder editorial bias there than anywhere else I am aware of on the web. Never put ATH in the same breath as Paceline when referring to honesty and fair-handedness in discussions of cyclists and the bike industry in its various guises.

To the OP: It s highly regrettable what you have found yourself mired in. I am afraid that for the most part your options are few and the amount of redress you might receive is small, if any. Sorry for the harsh reality but it is what it is and the scumbag builders out there know this. As petty comfort, this bike biz is very small scale stuff; there were hundreds of fly-by-night housing contractors that disappeared during the post-Lehman aftermath with very little consequence. So although there might be legal recourse, going after a penniless schmuck/schmuckette custom bike builder is a low probability positive outcome. Sorry.

I have always sought to be sensible about the experience in dealing with a custom builder. I have written about it at length here in this forum. I think some of the more senior and experienced members of this forum should do their part in helping other Paceliners navigate what can be a minefield in the custom builder game. Do not get D-K'd (Dunning-Kruger'ed) by people that know not of what they speak.

In that sense, threads like this one are invaluable.

Rockstar builders are largely a creation of web-based personas that all had a purpose and an agenda. Don't get suckered by this kind of tomfoolery.

[krhea]

Originally Posted by rugbysecondrow

This topic has been taboo in the past. I created a Feedback Thread back in 2010 in an effort to provide a resource for those looking to make a decision regarding builders. It was shouted down and closed. For better or worse, this is a different place now. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864

Anyway, I have been through a process similar, but not as protracted. It was not expecting the process to be as emotionally draining as it was. Buying a custom frame turned from a daydream to a reality, to a nightmare. The deception, lies, excuses...they just get old.

I provided a report/review of my experience with the builder (Paul Taylor) in an effort to inform others what to expect if they do business with this person. . I sent him what I wrote. You would not believe the number of people who PM'd me with similar issues, afraid to come forward. Many feared retribution. Many thanked me for helping them avoid him. Many said they had issues with the same builder and apologized for not speaking up sooner.

With money, dreams and effort on the line, I think it is better to honestly critique the company and the person, and allow the customer to make an informed decision. I would rather the good builders get the contracts rather than the bad, so you are actually helping more than one party by coming forward.

With all that said, it is your decision. Cheers

Rudy, you da man. I was about to write something very similar to what you wrote. Thanks.
"
"Velomonkey", your comments were spot on in this thread as well.

Mr Kirk, you're an asset to your craft and a Paceline "All-Star" for the manner in which you handle your business and allow us to have a peek into your mind at times. Offering the OP your assistance is another example of going way above and beyond what is expected of you. Thanks

To the OP, I've been where you are, it ain't fun. As Spike Lee once so famously said..."Do The Right Thing" and shed some light on who this builder is so another honest hard working person who may finally be fulfilling their dream of a custom frame can avoid dealing with unethical builders who turn the experience from a dream into a nightmare in short order.

[rugbysecondrow]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

meaning what exactly?

That by airing the issue, the builder would delay even longer. Some even had outright threats of lawsuit from the builder if anything was said. By keeping their mouth shut, and towing the line, they MIGHT still get their bike.

Retribution from the Paceline (serotta forum) peers who would slam them down, even the Mods who were less forgiving. People like feeling like they are at the "cool table" and for some folks, the builders helped create that environment. It wasn't my bag, but many folks liked it.

The forum was a "Bro Joint" that courted and coddled builders. Any talk was shouted down by folks here.

This thread is an indication that the forum has changed some, although I haven't paid attention as I am out of the custom frame market now.

[54ny77]

certainly not litigation, but rather, the online wrath (oh no, not that!) of bike dorks who fancy themselves less dork. this, while being online, talking about bikes, photographing bikes, yadda yadda. and spending afternoons wearing lycra and shaving their legs while not. sure, that makes sense.

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

meaning what exactly?

p.s. ruby, the absurdity of that situation you mentioned (re: threats of lawsuit) is beyond words! i'd love to know who threatened a slapp action for badmouthing a frame build. most f-builders who screw with customers literally don't have a pot to piss in, let alone be in a capacity to litigate a matter. the situation is akin to someone going online and writing a bad review of restaurant or car buying experience. the internet is replete with examples like that, ad nauseum. freedom of speech and all that.

[MacMan]

When I went custom I too was lured by the mystique of some of the small folks with splashy instagram accounts. In the end, the trust was not there so I ended up with a Seven that was delivered on time with no shenanigans. As much as I love it, I would have gone another way if the trust was there. I guess I am proof that this type of chain without identifying the low life harms the business of the honest little guys, which is too bad.

Realize this build was probably not focused on the latest and greatest, but sheesh - I wouldn't even want two year old parts on the frame at this point!

Good luck to OP.

[Hilltopperny]

I believe in accountability. If the builder didn't follow through and has since been ignoring the op then they should be "outed" as it is well deserved. I would lose my mind if I shelled out the kind of bucks to buy a custom frame and was given years of excuses. I would be even more livid if I sent parts for the build and lost them as well. There is simply no excuse at this point and if it were me I would cut my losses and tell everybody I knew about the poor business dealings and overall distrust towards said builder. Thankfully there are many reputable builders on this forum and plenty of folks who are willing to share their experiences with said builders and forum members in the comments section of the classifieds. Good luck and please let the rest of us know who the builder is so we can avoid such a horrible situation...

[rugbysecondrow]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

certainly not litigation, but rather, the online wrath (oh no, not that!) of bike dorks who fancy themselves less dork. this, while being online, talking about bikes, photographing bikes, yadda yadda. and spending afternoons wearing lycra and shaving their legs while not. sure, that makes sense.



p.s. ruby, the absurdity of that situation you mentioned (re: threats of lawsuit) is beyond words! i'd love to know who threatened a slapp action for badmouthing a frame build. most f-builders who screw with customers literally don't have a pot to piss in, let alone be in a capacity to litigate a matter. the situation is akin to someone going online and writing a bad review of restaurant or car buying experience. the internet is replete with examples like that, ad nauseum. freedom of speech and all that.

Here is a similar post. I deleted the PM i received (it was 5 years ago), but I got one similar. Don't remember if it was from this person or not. This tone was similar to what I received in PM though. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpo...7&postcount=69

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

I would order from Kirk, Hampsten, Strong, Dave Wages, Waterford, MOOTS and other well-known good guys whose names escape me at the moment. One of my biggest problems was with a builder I thought I knew but he got way off-track with business and personal problems. I put quite a few miles on a borrowed R. Sachs bike that I loved riding and looking at but I'm way too old to live long enough to get a new one built for me.

Soulcraft, Caletti, Pegoretti, 44, Firefly, IndyFab, Geekhouse, Vanilla/SV, DeSlavo....

I mean, the list of REPUTABLE and TRANSPARENT builders is a strong one. Even if their waits are long and sometimes delayed, the reputation most of these folks have is that their communication is dialed in, at the very least. You're going to get a bike.


I talk to Megan from Moth Attack every couple of days and we aren't even looking at delivery for my new bike until pre-August 1st.

[timto]

Originally Posted by rugbysecondrow

Here is a similar post. I deleted the PM i received (it was 5 years ago), but I got one similar. Don't remember if it was from this person or not. This tone was similar to what I received in PM though. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpo...7&postcount=69

That is insane. So sickening to read that happened