OT: Cars, fuel economy, and such

[witcombusa]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I think that realistically that any change in CAFE standards will have little effect on the cars offered for sale in the USA. The state of California (and about 12 other states as I recall) says it will continue to require that cars sold in that state meet the CAFE standards as they currently stand. The California market, combined with the other states, is too large to ignore and at the same time it's much too expensive for a car maker to develop, test, market and sell different vehicles in different states. It just doesn't make financial sense for the car maker.

I think they will relax the CAFE standards and much fuss will be made of it but in the end the car makers will stay on the same path.

dave

CA is not a good example of ANYTHING!
And any tax is just simple theft at the point of a gun. Period.

[fa63]

Originally Posted by ntb1001

Problem is that it just dosnt happen....it just feeds the Government waste machine.

Ah, the good old wasteful government argument... I would never argue there aren't inefficiencies in government, but that does that mean we should do nothing?

[ntb1001]

Originally Posted by fa63

Ah, the good old wasteful government argument... I would never argue there aren't inefficiencies in government, but that does that mean we should do nothing?

not at all...just think that there has to be a better way than wasting money

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[fa63]

Cap and trade it is, then.

[ntb1001]

Originally Posted by fa63

Cap and trade it is, then.

if it makes you feel better...send me money and I'll wear a cap!!


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[Ralph]

The CAFE standards have forced technology to come faster than it would on it's own....don't you think? Lightweight steels, more aluminum, some CF at hi end, aero designs, stop/start, hybrids, all electric, etc. Small engines with turbo charging....I know turbo's been around about 100 years.....but with modern electronics controlling spark....they work good in small engine economy vehicles.

Consider how (relatively) fuel efficient some large vehicle are these days compared to in the past. Do you think manufacturers would have spent R & D without being forced? I'm ready to see them loosened up some....or frozen at current levels a while....but think they weren't all bad. I would favor indexing Fed gas tax to inflation (probably politically doable) ....especially if ear marked to roads and bridges vehicles use....not public transportation systems. Fund competing systems another way.

[Ralph]

RE Gov't waste.....I know it's always fashionable to talk about how wasteful the Gov't is.

I had a class once in Graduate school where we looked at that topic. This was in the early 70's when I was in my early 30's. At that time.....we learned that most estimates put gov't waste at about 5%of money spent.....compared to if same job or projects were done in the private sector. And that number was believed to be fairly steady for the entire history of USA. Lots of reasons, but gov't just not motivated to be as efficient as private business. But point is.....gov't waste not nearly as much as most think.

These studies did not take into account whether or not these departments should exist, whether work needed to be done or not, etc.....just measured the effectiveness of gov't doing something VS private sector. These studies were generally done before Gov't started demanding Union wages on construction jobs in non union locations....things like that. Example....Medicare, SS, and Medicaid....are run very efficiently as a dept. (not saying the policies of who gets it are efficient) This is the price we pay to have gov't....is way I look at it. At any rate....I don't usually complain about general topic of gov't waste. And also believe there are some jobs gov't can do better than private sector.

[fa63]

Couple reasons for perceived government inefficiency:

- Nature of the services government provides (Baumol paradox, I think it is called)
- Transparency / accountability requirements are typically far greater for governments than the private sector (means more paper work, etc.)
- It is easy to pick on them

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by witcombusa

CA is not a good example of ANYTHING!
And any tax is just simple theft at the point of a gun. Period.

I'm POSITIVE those, paid for with taxes, fire departments trying to save about 1100 homes above Boulder are thinking exactly that.

Probably not..tin foil hat time.

[Mikej]

Wasn't there talk of a per mile tax on vehicles so the Prius crowd doesn't get off easy? Or is that just Wisconsin?

[ceolwulf]

Originally Posted by Mikej

Wasn't there talk of a per mile tax on vehicles so the Prius crowd doesn't get off easy? Or is that just Wisconsin?

At some point there will be enough electric cars that they'll have to pay their share for road works somehow.

Granted that almost all damage to roads caused by vehicles is done by heavy trucks, which IMHO should mostly be replaced by rail.

[zap]

edit

Originally Posted by ntb1001

Higher taxes on gas don't stop you from driving...it just costs you more for something you can't avoid.

Higher fuel costs changes peoples purchasing decisions.

I'm willing to bet that US$5/gallon fuel prices will result in a dip in SUV sales.

[martl]

Originally Posted by zap

If the goal is to reduce the size of vehicles on us roads, higher fuel taxes can be effective if revenue goes to improving highways, bridges, etc. Germany was disciplined in allocating funds and the roads superb. Not sure if that (fiscal discipline) is still the case.

The USA and state governments.......

Germany has (sorts of) taxed emissions and fuel usage by upping the tax on fuel. The price of each liter of gas we buy contains 65.45 ct of tax, for diesel it is at 47.04 ct. That ammounts to roughly 2,60$/2$ per gallon of fuel.

As of emissions, there are EU regulations which will put your car into an "emission class" which will affect what annual tax you have to pay for your car. It is also tied to the cubic inch (ccm for us metric fellas).
Each car is taxed at 6,76 Euro up to 25,36 Euro/100cm³, depending on what Euro Class the car is rated. The rating is what was cheated about in the softare of several car maufacturers. (It is noteable that german VW/Audi owners were *not* eligible for any refund - as car manufacturers represent a significant part of the countries industries, and are happy to exaggerate on this even more, they have the ear of our ministry of transport and the chancellor very much. Technically, what they did would qualify for "assisntance in tax fraud" which is usually not a crime taken easily, but there you are...)

There is no way of evading those taxes. We *do* have a system where cars + their maintenance (including fuel) can be given by companies to employees and be claimed against taxes that comany would have to pay, which would qualify as a tax evasion scheme if one looked closely, but (see above).

In Germany, taxes generally can *not* be put aside for a special purpose, so the mineral oil tax and the car tax can't go directly to infrastructure. Of course, a certain balance is maintained.

As of the infrastructure, that has been deteriorating in the last 2 decades, especially in the "old" federal states (non-DDR) due to lack of funds and the unavoidable public services f*up. Autobahns and main roads ("Bundesstrassen") are responsibility of the state, lesser roads are responsibility of the cities or communes, who often are tight.

Road maintenance is tricky - service it every 10 years for a certain ammount of €, or let it rot and do the necessary minimum/emergency repairs every 30 years for a comparably higher price - the policy has been the latter, recently. It shifts cost to the 5rd election period in the future...

Currently, there is a debate about privatising Autobahns, some already are. The public debate whether that is a good thing or not is going on.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by thwart

Really, the only difference is the absence of Sr. Ethel...

Yeah, no kidding. During my generation there must of been legions of Sister Ethels that mastered the craft of knuckle raps who were then assigned to Catholic elementary schools throughout the Diocese. Um, of course real corporeal punishment did not actually occur , the stern imagery of Sister Ethel and the implied threat was usually sufficient to maintain order. Those were the days...

To close the tangent on average reading level of Americans one more point I would like to make and a frightening one that I hope I am wrong about: reading level establishes a rough equivalence for some forms of intellectual capability because it facilitates, or in its limitation throttles, the inputs into development & growth of any person to learn, grow and function in an increasingly complex society at any and all levels.

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

I think the real problem is that we're a really stupid population.

There may be some truth in this hyperbole if the reading level of Americans is as bad as Wikipedia claims it to be.

The danger here is that if the average American reads at a 1st or 2nd grade reading level, there leaves open the possibility that he/she also thinks at a level of a 1st or 2nd grader too - a lack of input and stimulus will not serve to enhance and further any person's innate mental processes. And if that is the case, then our nation will suffer tremendous dislocations because a functioning democracy & rule of law both asks and requires something from each of its citizens. There will be other more easier & addictive forms of input, rather than the difficulty of reading, to tell a citizenry what to think when it is apparent the citizenry has no interest or capacity for thinking for itself and acting on its own perceived interests.

Maybe the solution isn't to get people to read better but to get "truthful information of the public concern" out in a more amenable and digestible form. Big ask, IMO as it still requires a basic competence. And in that there also drags in long-term issues on the value, role and competency of public education to aid citizen's ability to function in a democracy.

Nothing simple in anything in life. Sorry, no intent on my part to be a downer. But I never kid myself to try to know what I'm/we are up against.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

If the fuel taxes went directly into improving infrastructure, I'd be all for raising them. But they don't. They go into the black hole, and I'm dead set against feeding the government machine.

Precisely.

The goal of CAFE standards is no doubt mult-goal: Less pollution, lower costs, and others I'm sure.

I'm not sophisticated enough to understand how carbon taxes would achieve the same goal; the very term sounds to me like hocus-pocus. The fact that companies can trade these credits among themselves sounds like a shell game to me.