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  #16  
Old 01-16-2017, 09:50 PM
stephenmarklay stephenmarklay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macaroon View Post
Something else to consider; perfecting your fit and pedalling technique on the trainer might not = a great fit and pedalling technique when you go outside on the road.

On a trainer you're locked in position and the feedback from the trainer is not the same as riding on the road IMO.

Thanks and your right. I know that TiDesigns has commented about this.
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  #17  
Old 01-16-2017, 10:06 PM
stephenmarklay stephenmarklay is offline
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Originally Posted by benb View Post
I've had a lot of trouble with this personally, I have a similar body size/shape..

In general if you let me just adjust the bike till I feel good my knee is going to be behind the pedal spindle. Just about any fitter I've worked with (quite a few, as I'm always having chronic bike fit issues it seems) will always try to push me forward to get my knee over the pedal spindle, regardless of how fancy their equipment is. Interestingly almost all of the places I've been fit almost all ignore the issues with whether the saddle position helps you unweight the handlebars or causes knee pain, it's all KOPS all the time. I think the knee thing is semi-forgivable though as in general fit sessions don't seem long enough to cause knee pain if the position is bad, you just don't seem to ride hard enough and long enough on their trainer/fit bike for stuff to begin hurting.

If I'm too far forward my knees will hurt. Exact same issue if I squat in one of those squat cages that has a bar that travels on a track, or if I'm not really careful with foot placement on a leg press machine. If your knees don't hurt then the position is probably fine for you. For me, I know I can't slide the saddle forward of KOPS, it will make my knees hurt unless there was perhaps something else going on like a very high saddle position or you shorten the cranks.

The saddle thing is very important too and all of this stuff interacts. If either the saddle or the position is not right my leg will push my sit bones around, particularly on my right leg, and I get saddle sores on the right side. For some reason this became a big big issue in the last year or so for me. The two most recent fits I had have seemingly made me way way more susceptible to that saddle sore, or saddles have changed or something has changed with my skin. (Saddles these days in general seem to have less padding and/or they've changed the way the edges of the saddle roll off.) My most recent fit when I put the bike on the trainer gave me a saddle sore in 15 minutes... horrible. All that moving of the sit bones and stuff is probably not helping my back, etc.. either.

BTW sliding the saddle too far back can impact your back too. Any change you make that is too extreme is going to have some negative impact somewhere else.
I must have a long femur since it is nearly impossible to get my knee behind the axle. With a 73 degree STA, a 25mm setback post and my saddle slid all the way back I can get it close.

I can pedal like that too. I just don’t think it is optimal for me. I end up using more hamstring and lower back and I bet if I could see the force vectors I would putting a lot of force forward at 3:00.

As it is now when I push down on the pedal at 3:00 I feel like all of my leg muscles are more or less working evenly or at least proportionally. My quads don’t get overly tired, nor my hamstrings. My weight distribution is
better on the bike as well.

It’s hard to explain (for me anyway) but I just feel like I am in an athletic position ready to go.

I am still a tad unsure of my seat height. I am where just about everyone says to be (and that is a range). But it feels a little low to me and I may take it up a tad over time.
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  #18  
Old 01-17-2017, 08:43 AM
benb benb is offline
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Sounds like you probably belong on a bike with a shallower seat angle. I have 2 bikes, one has a 73.3 degree seat angle and the other has a 72.5 degree angle. It's a big enough difference at my saddle height that I have the seat most of the way back on a 20mm setback post on the 73 degree bike and I almost want a seat post with less then 20mm setback on the 72.5 degree bike.

Nate you are probably right. My two most recent fit sessions were with two different fitters and they disagreed on saddle height by 21mm. But I can have my sit bones moving around at either height, both height and setback (and cleat position) can all cause that problem.

I am taking a real serious off season.. lots of weight training, flexibility, core, and I'm running instead of riding the trainer. I think some of my issues were also caused by too much biking for too many years ignoring some of the functional aspects of fitness. The thing is I suspect for my age I'm still very functional compared to lots of other people. Still, in the last 8-12 weeks I have approximately doubled my poundage on most of the upper body exercises I've been doing, so there was clearly a lot of lost strength over the past 2-3 years of biking without doing much if any weight training.

I have had so many weird bike fit issues for so many years I doubt I'd ever really figure it out unless I went to see Andy Pruitt and got X-ray measurement of my legs or something. And yet whatever is weird with me has basically 0 effect off the bike.
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  #19  
Old 01-20-2017, 06:26 AM
stephenmarklay stephenmarklay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate2351 View Post
Don't trust a plumb lines dropped by yourself, there is way too much room for error.

That being said you also need to make sure that you're on a saddle that works for your body (not just comfort). When I set up on a saddle that's too wide, even by mms, a plumb line will always say I'm too far forward because I'm forward of the sit point on the saddle. Sliding the saddle back wont help this either because I'm just sliding on it.

Backing out a bit, KNOPS is great for finding "neutral" but I don't use it as fit dogma. Once you realize that all the fit points directly influence and are related to each other, then you can get great fits that disregard KNOPS. I very rarely set up folks at KNOPS.
Thanks Nate. I am using a cambium and it is likely wider than I need. However, with it set level there is a about cm of movement on the thing that I can find comfy and that allows enough movement for me. I tend to like to be back a cm or so for higher cadence.
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  #20  
Old 01-20-2017, 06:34 AM
stephenmarklay stephenmarklay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benb View Post
Sounds like you probably belong on a bike with a shallower seat angle. I have 2 bikes, one has a 73.3 degree seat angle and the other has a 72.5 degree angle. It's a big enough difference at my saddle height that I have the seat most of the way back on a 20mm setback post on the 73 degree bike and I almost want a seat post with less then 20mm setback on the 72.5 degree bike.

Nate you are probably right. My two most recent fit sessions were with two different fitters and they disagreed on saddle height by 21mm. But I can have my sit bones moving around at either height, both height and setback (and cleat position) can all cause that problem.

I am taking a real serious off season.. lots of weight training, flexibility, core, and I'm running instead of riding the trainer. I think some of my issues were also caused by too much biking for too many years ignoring some of the functional aspects of fitness. The thing is I suspect for my age I'm still very functional compared to lots of other people. Still, in the last 8-12 weeks I have approximately doubled my poundage on most of the upper body exercises I've been doing, so there was clearly a lot of lost strength over the past 2-3 years of biking without doing much if any weight training.

I have had so many weird bike fit issues for so many years I doubt I'd ever really figure it out unless I went to see Andy Pruitt and got X-ray measurement of my legs or something. And yet whatever is weird with me has basically 0 effect off the bike.
Your right and if I have the chance to get a custom I will ask it to have a 72.5 STA for the very same reason. However, with my current saddle position I can use a 25mm post and be in the middle on the rails. I was riding further back and I had a 35mm post on a bike with a 73.5 STA. That was not ideal.

Saddle height is still a bit of a mystery to me. I started with the .883-885 of inseam and that gets me close but somehow it feels too low. The 1.09 inseam (measuring from pedal axle) is a tad higher and that is what I am using now. It feels better.
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  #21  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:41 AM
OtayBW OtayBW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenmarklay View Post
Saddle height is still a bit of a mystery to me. I started with the .883-885 of inseam and that gets me close but somehow it feels too low. The 1.09 inseam (measuring from pedal axle) is a tad higher and that is what I am using now. It feels better.
Why not just keep raising the saddle up marginally until your hips begin to rock (have someone riding behind you evaluate) and then back off a smidge...?
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  #22  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:46 AM
fa63 fa63 is offline
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I noticed the OP mentioned using a Cambium saddle. Based on my experience, the Cambium places the rider in a more forward position compared to more conventional saddles, given the rail placement.

I am also 6' tall, with a 33.75" inseam. My saddle height is 77 cm, but I haven't measured setback in a while. I will measure it when I get home later today.
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  #23  
Old 01-21-2017, 03:51 PM
stephenmarklay stephenmarklay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtayBW View Post
Why not just keep raising the saddle up marginally until your hips begin to rock (have someone riding behind you evaluate) and then back off a smidge...?
yeah that is what I need to do.
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  #24  
Old 01-21-2017, 03:52 PM
stephenmarklay stephenmarklay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fa63 View Post
I noticed the OP mentioned using a Cambium saddle. Based on my experience, the Cambium places the rider in a more forward position compared to more conventional saddles, given the rail placement.

I am also 6' tall, with a 33.75" inseam. My saddle height is 77 cm, but I haven't measured setback in a while. I will measure it when I get home later today.
Wow we are the same! I have my saddle at 76 right now.

Last edited by stephenmarklay; 01-21-2017 at 03:56 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:43 PM
fa63 fa63 is offline
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Calling all bike fitters

I finally measured my setback; it is right at 8 cm with the Brooks Cambium. With a Specialized Romin, it was right around 9.5 cm.

I should also note that my fitter originally put me at 10.5 cm setback and 76 cm saddle height with the Romin saddle. Through trial and error, I came to the realization that I prefer a slightly more forward and higher position.

Last edited by fa63; 01-23-2017 at 06:55 PM.
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