OT: My first motorcycle...

[seanile]

^^MSF has been pivotal in my ability to control a bike properly...well, that and my cycling background. fantastic course, highly recommend doing it.
i almost got a perfect score as well, but went too slow in a turning portion of the test hahha. it's funnier if you know me.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by seanile

^^MSF has been pivotal in my ability to control a bike properly...well, that and my cycling background. fantastic course, highly recommend doing it.
i almost got a perfect score as well, but went too slow in a turning portion of the test hahha. it's funnier if you know me.

Yes, the MSF skills are indeed crucial. The test score part is all well and good but even so, doing well on it would be missing the point and could lull someone into a false sense of security. Because the whole point of doing well in the MSF is to acquire skills that increase the odds of safety and staying alive in the real world out on the roadway. The test score means bupkis.

I am well aware that someone might read my MSF story and think it as braggart and blowhard. That isn't me and that's not why I told it. My guess is the Curious Hipster thought he was better than he was and wanted to be publicly singled out in class for "acing MSF". That vanity can get you killed.

My last pitch on MSF and I'll shut up. A rider needs to have absolute trust that he has the correct skills because there is not enough time to think about doing it right when confronted in traffic - the response must be reflexive, without conscious thought. And if a rider has a bad habit that he must think about to NOT do before doing it the right way that requires time - time that in traffic will be the milliseconds you don't have or don't want to give away.

Two examples of what must be automatic under pressure:

• straightening the steering axis of the bike before panic/threshold braking the bike - if you don't the braking force and weight transfer of the bike will fold & flop the front wheel over because the steering geometry can't support the braking forces off axis when the handlebars aren't straight. Every MSF Advanced Rider course has somebody folding their bike under braking into the steering lock.
  
  
• target fixation - you go where you look. A rider's response to being surprised by a road going threat is to immediately focus and target sight the escape route. NOT stare yourself right into the sheet metal bearing down on you.

Be careful from whom advice is taken from on the web. That includes me. Most are simply regurgitating what they Google and don't know dick. Let you good sense be your guide.

[Gummee]

IME if you can control a bicycle in 'interesting' conditions, you can control a moto in 'interesting' conditions.

I'm an outlier on the 'first bike bell-curve' 'cause the first bike I got to ride on a frequent basis was Dad's '82 OldWing. He left it with me in Sandy Eggo and flew home (emergency). I rode that thing in SoCal traffic for 6mos before I got it sold.

The first bike I bought with my own $ was an 04 BMW R1150RT. Needed the bags to run stuff from Oceanside to Mission Valley, CA. 40-ish miles one way of SoCal traffic meant a moto could get there in a reasonable time regardless of what traffic was actually doing.

M

[malcolm]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

Yes, the MSF skills are indeed crucial. The test score part is all well and good but even so, doing well on it would be missing the point and could lull someone into a false sense of security. Because the whole point of doing well in the MSF is to acquire skills that increase the odds of safety and staying alive in the real world out on the roadway. The test score means bupkis.

I am well aware that someone might read my MSF story and think it as braggart and blowhard. That isn't me and that's not why I told it. My guess is the Curious Hipster thought he was better than he was and wanted to be publicly singled out in class for "acing MSF". That vanity can get you killed.

My last pitch on MSF and I'll shut up. A rider needs to have absolute trust that he has the correct skills because there is not enough time to think about doing it right when confronted in traffic - the response must be reflexive, without conscious thought. And if a rider has a bad habit that he must think about to NOT do before doing it the right way that requires time - time that in traffic will be the milliseconds you don't have or don't want to give away.

Two examples of what must be automatic under pressure:

• straightening the steering axis of the bike before panic/threshold braking the bike - if you don't the braking force and weight transfer of the bike will fold & flop the front wheel over because the steering geometry can't support the braking forces off axis when the handlebars aren't straight. Every MSF Advanced Rider course has somebody folding their bike under braking into the steering lock.
  
  
• target fixation - you go where you look. A rider's response to being surprised by a road going threat is to immediately focus and target sight the escape route. NOT stare yourself right into the sheet metal bearing down on you.

Be careful from whom advice is taken from on the web. That includes me. Most are simply regurgitating what they Google and don't know dick. Let you good sense be your guide.

This is all very true and good advice. It always amazed me when I rode a lot how many people I came across that had a ton of miles but really no riding skills. No idea how to use the brakes or any real tactics for avoidance.
As an ER doc most of the motorcycle accidents and injuries I saw, leaving the left turn in front of you out, were from inability to panic stop, getting on the brakes off axis or too hard and going down and either leaving the apex of a curve and going off road or backing off once committed and high siding.

Motorcycle safety courses are great and you are crazy not to do them but I would also suggest some performance classes/school at a local track if you have the access. You can pick up skills that will save your life.

As an aside one of the beauties of a modern ducati is it will teach you how to use the front brake as the rear not much good for anything except to keep you from rolling backward at a light.

[Likes2ridefar]

MSF was integral in my learning. I'm pretty sure I posted it already in this thread but no idea where. I went from a total newbie to feeling fairly confident on the road. I had zero miles on a motorcycle when I started the course.

Basic things like always being in first gear when you stop are something I had no idea about but was drilled into being automatic by the finish of the course.

While we are on safety, I think equally important as riding skills is the gear you choose to ride with.

I can't believe some people are crazy enough to go out in jeans and a shirt and a tiny little helmet (if that) with the belief they will never crash. Even a tip over in a parking lot with no protection could leave you with a broken or burned leg and road rash all over. Forget even walking away from an accident if you are moving much faster.

It was expensive and took a long time to get, but I went all out and got what is arguably the best protective custom suit in high viz yellow plus the same level of protection with gloves, boots, and a full face helmet. I look like a big football player with it on instead of a skinny cyclist, but every part of my body is wrapped in form fitting thick armor with fabric designed to not overheat even at very high speed slides.

I also added some slightly flickering amber LED lights on the forks instead of plastic reflectors, highly reflective SOLAS tape in strategic locations, and a very bright LED rear running/brake/turn signal light that pulses when the brakes are applied.

The change after adding all that stuff was immediately obvious. I never have cars pulling out in front of me and on the highway it's pretty obvious they see me, passengers often stare. I'm like a solar flare on the highway

Other cyclists probably think it's sorta like we call FREDs but this is a time when I absolutely do not care.

[Gummee]

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

Other cyclists probably think it's sorta like we call FREDs but this is a time when I absolutely do not care.

Power Ranger

That's what you are: a Power Ranger.

I'm MOTTGATT. I'll always wear boots, jacket, helmet, gloves, but will ride in jeans or Draggin Jeans if I'm out running errands on the bike.

Even for non-dirt riders, ADVRider is a great resource. I've learned lots over there over the years.

M

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by malcolm

Motorcycle safety courses are great and you are crazy not to do them but I would also suggest some performance classes/school at a local track if you have the access. You can pick up skills that will save your life.

I am answering and commenting on this because I can speak to it.

I have done both a sportbike school at a track and also done numerous track days at what might be considered a "local track" for motorsport participants here in the NYC Tri-State area at Pocono Raceway. The sportbike school was CLASS run by the Pridmore's at New Hampshire Motor Speedway and the track time was through some of the sportbike clubs in the Metro area that used to run track days at Pocono's North Course. All done with my Ducati.

I think when the topic is applicability of track skills to the street, there is a more subtle element around confidence and control of the bike that comes into play rather than developed skills like braking and cornering. Once the rider has pushed the bike closer to the edge of its performance envelope there is a better knowledge of what the bike can do and what can be safely used on the street - and the answer is: really not much of anything a superbike can do is enjoyable on the street. But like the fighter pilot's credo that "Speed is life" knowing what is on tap with a superbike is very useful to avoid trouble when speed or maneuverability is what is required. But better still however is to use the skills learned in MSF to avoid putting one's self in a position to have to use that performance envelope; the MSF curriculum is focused on street safety. Avoidance is a far better tactic than confrontation.

Track schools teach basic survivability on the race course, only some of which IMO is of use on the street. One track skill comes to mind as very useful on the street: the ability to read a line to recognize grip. For example: The topography of the racetrack is very important when it comes to how the grading of the pavement is leveled, referred to as the camber in the track, throughout the racing line through that corner. This has tremendous impact on grip levels that can be held through a corner, especially in how the tire contact patch is effected on a single-track vehicle when it is heeled over. So the ability to rapidly size up the roadway when street riding can come from a skill learned and practiced on the race track.

Story about track school
Most any sport motorcycle has tremendous capability already in the bike. More than enough to easily have the ability to save your bacon on the road but usually falling short in the skill of the rider to get at and use that performance. All it takes is one ride with a skilled racer to know the chasm between them and us on a sport motorcycle is as wide as the gap between any of us cyclists and Cancellara.

When I took CLASS, both Reg and Jason Pridmore were running the school (Jason has since gone out on with his own track school). Paid rides for charity riding 2-up with Jason were offered to students. The bikes were the school's standard Honda VFR 750's. Street compound tires. Sit pillion, hands extended forwards and grasping the tank. Jason would take you out into a running track session, all manner of students and classmates running as fast as they can, enjoying their precious track time, testing themselves, friends racing friends.

The only rule about CLASS track time is that passing must take place on the outside line - no one chops to the inside line at the apex or risks banishment.

Riding 2-up with Jason Pridmore had him slicing through traffic on track like lane splitting on the freeway at 95mph when everyone else was cruising at 70mph. Line up a pass after the lead bike dives into the apex by taking the high road all the way around. Rolling on throttle at a rate and acceleration out of the apex that still leaves the fast guys in class in the wake of VFR exhaust. Passing another bike in the curve while on the the outside of the curve. All with me sitting like a lump on a log on the back of Jason's VFR. GXR, CBR-1000, ZX7, Duc 900SS or 916. Ha! All rolling chicanes. Flat out for them. All no match for a lazy stroll through the field 2-up on the back of a VFR750 driven by a National-class rider. What an experience.

The performance most riders think they can get out of a sport motorcycle is just the tip of the iceberg.

[malcolm]

I agree with the above. MSF should be the backbone learning instrument for any rider. I suggested performance school mostly because of what I posted earlier about injuries I observed during my years as an ER doc. Many were carrying too much speed into a corner and then either rolling off and high siding or just straightening the turn and leaving the road. I still feel once you are well versed with the MSF fundamentals performance schools can be fun and helpful. How to choose a line and what to do when you are beyond the point of no return can be helpful.

I agree with your observations of the pros. In all sports the ones that do it for a living are remarkable, but I've been shocked at the difference between guys/gals in cars and motorcycles that are really fast vs the pros. They have a feel for the edge that can only come from thousands of hours of being near it. Anyone that rides or loves motorcycles should see a motoGP or superbike event in person.

[avalonracing]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

All with me sitting like a lump on a log on the back of Jason's VFR. GXR, CBR-1000, ZX7, Duc 900SS or 916. Ha! All rolling chicanes. Flat out for them. All no match for a lazy stroll through the field 2-up on the back of a VFR750 driven by a National-class rider.

Nice post...and VFR's Rule! (I've had two... they are such great bikes).

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by malcolm

Anyone that rides or loves motorcycles should see a motoGP or superbike event in person.

I watched the pros ride at Sears Point and was amazed to see at the exit of turn 11 they were using so much of the track that their tires were under the bottom of the ARMCO barriers---I mean stuck in sideways beyond where they could have fit a tire had they not been heeled over so far. I thought I was pushing my car when I got within 6 inches of the ARMCO.

[PaMtbRider]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

...Riding 2-up with Jason Pridmore...

The performance most riders think they can get out of a sport motorcycle is just the tip of the iceberg.

I did a C.L.A.S.S.with Jason and Reg Pridmore at Watkins Glen in 1991. Riding on the back with Jason was humbling to say the least.

My wife got her motorcycle license a few months before I took the school. She wasn't a registered participant but they let her sit in on all the classroom discussions and got a lap with Jason. A very cool experience we will both never forget.

[fuzzalow]

^ Watkins Glen, now that's a track. Very big & very fast. A place that big might have you seeing a CLASS-mate only once in awhile per few laps! I hope you did the full course including "The Boot" because motorcycle courses should have lotsa turns to run the bikes cranked over the inside knee puck! Doing the fast, downhill right-hander after the bus-stop chicane on the back straight musta been fun!

Riding 2-up with Jason at New Hampshire was fun because the place is so tiny that the road course is nothin' but turns. He could go faster just driving right down the middle of the entire track while every student is trying to straighten the turn radii. Nuts.

Preachy public safety message
Please if you desire to have sporting fun with a sport motorcycle, please find a way to do it on track. Nothing that can be done on a public roadway will ever come close. I have tried and I had the speeding tickets and the lawyer bills to prove it. Once you develop some skill, nothing on the street will challenge you enough to scratch that itch except running your sport motorcycle on a track.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

Preachy public safety message
Please if you desire to have sporting fun with a sport motorcycle, please find a way to do it on track. Nothing that can be done on a public roadway will ever come close. I have tried and I had the speeding tickets and the lawyer bills to prove it. Once you develop some skill, nothing on the street will challenge you enough to scratch that itch except running your sport motorcycle on a track.

the fortunate news about the cbr250 is that i get to use ever single drop of torque that bike can muster on every single ride

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

the fortunate news about the cbr250 is that i get to use ever single drop of torque that bike can muster on every single ride

that is one reason i almost got it after repeatedly reading 250cc is the place to start.

when i first went to look at bikes i expected to see a dinky little motorcycle but was surprised how big it was. that put the 250cc into perspective. it is still fast enough for most anyone up to a certain speed.

before purchasing, i solicited advice from my uncle that's ridden for 40+ years. he told me to get a road king and that it better not be white. i'm really glad I didnt get one although now I know i wouldnt mind having one some day...

[AngryScientist]

by the way, it's supposed to be 55 degrees and sunny tomorrow. the bike is coming out!