Power meter questions

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by Turkle

(Keep it under 400 watts for extended climbs!)

Considering almost no one can hold 400w for even a few minutes it’s probably a good idea

[jadmt]

I don't get how keeping a group together is easier with watts vs mph? I ride solo or with one other rider so I guess that part would not matter to me. When I ride solo I try and average 20mph and when I ride with my buddy he tells me what pace he is wanting to ride and adjust accordingly.

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by jadmt

I don't get how keeping a group together is easier with watts vs mph? I ride solo or with one other rider so I guess that part would not matter to me. When I ride solo I try and average 20mph and when I ride with my buddy he tells me what pace he is wanting to ride and adjust accordingly.

Speed can vary wildly due to terrain, wind, temperature etc.

I can figure out what others are capable of, my father for example, I know what watts I need to hold so he can draft behind me without dropping him but more importantly keeping him in his endurance range.

[BrazAd]

Wow, thanks for all the great info! I’m a numbers nerd - I love Strava for that info - so this sounds like it’s gonna add to my riding.

Gary


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[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

Speed can vary wildly due to terrain, wind, temperature etc.

I can figure out what others are capable of, my father for example, I know what watts I need to hold so he can draft behind me without dropping him but more importantly keeping him in his endurance range and not keeping him on the edge.

^^^ This. It is natural for riders to react to changes in wind or grade and change their power, but it is easy to over-react and increase power too much. If one wants to keep a paceline together, one should try to keep power/effort level constant when on the front. And that means the rider on the front should also keep in mind that drafting effect changes with speed - if the rider on the front maintains constant power as when the grade goes from flat to uphill, the riders following actually have to increase their power, because there is less drafting effect as the speed decreases. Likewise, if the rider on the front maintains constant power as the grade goes from flat to downhill, the following riders have to decrease their power, as there is more drafting effect as the speed increases.

It might seem counter-intuitive, but the best way to keep a paceline working together smoothly, especially if there are riders of varying ability levels, is if the rider on the front works a little less hard on the uphills than on the flats, and a little harder on the downhills than the flats.

[Gummee]

If you don't have a training plan or coach a PM is a nifty source of data, but is otherwise less than useful.

About the only worthwhile data you'll get is 'make sure easy days are easy' and 'make sure hard days are hard.'

M

[gravelreformist]

I agree with others who have said that the primary benefit is in effort management. I've been training and racing endurance sports for over 3 decades, most of that with HR based training, was often able to hit my zones within a couple of BPM by feel - and I still think power data is one of the most valuable additions to my kit. Knowing my zones and living in a region full of rolling hills, on HR or perceived effort you're often putting out 50-100w more than you think at the bottom of a roller, cresting a hill, etc. It's only for a few seconds at a time, but cumulatively over hours of riding, it really adds up. Those efforts happen and are done way before it feels even the slightest bit hard or shows up on HR.

I don't think you need to be training or racing to find power data useful. Anyone who wants to ride longer more comfortably can benefit.

[phishrabbi]

I find that the most important use for the pm is keeping myself just below threshold on long climbs so I don’t blow up a third of the way up.

[br0qn]

nice thread, i've just added a couple of books to the reading list.

i've been "training" with no data to this point but soon want to incorporate HR and power.

Originally Posted by glepore

Finally, if you use an app to keep track of fitness metrics (there are free ones-Golden Cheetah is great but has a learning curve) you can not only track recent load to schedule appropriate rest but also track "form" which gives you a good gauge of how well you can currently express the fitness you have.

Its also useful for tracking heartrate vs power, which is a whole topic in itself but can tell you a lot, from how tired you are to predicting the onset of sickness.

any good resources for learning/using Golden Cheetah? that is new to me and looks really interesting though loads going on and no idea how to leverage any of it.

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

It might seem counter-intuitive, but the best way to keep a paceline working together smoothly, especially if there are riders of varying ability levels, is if the rider on the front works a little less hard on the uphills than on the flats, and a little harder on the downhills than the flats.

This should be drummed into every rider when they start riding with a (serious) group. The amount of (even strong and experienced) riders who don't know this is mind-boggling. Conversely, in a competitive situation, it can be used to your advantage. Got someone in the group just sitting on and refusing to pull or soft-pedalling their turns? Really force the pace up every incline and ease up on the way down.

[benb]

You need to actually learn your zones before you can really use it to gauge efforts and pace yourself.

Ride for a while with it and you might intuit where your zones are, but realistically you probably need to do some of the tests.

Once you have that it is quite useful for controlling your efforts, especially on really long rides. That control of your efforts will make you faster straight away on a long enough ride.

To actually improve stuff in an efficient way requires you to kind of remake how you do "training" rides if you don't already do interval training on a regular basis. If you already do intervals with heart rate it's not as big of a learning process, but you end up learning to pace different with power.

Selecting exactly which intervals are going to be most beneficial is a learning process perhaps best assisted by a coach. It's easy to overdo it as well.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by br0qn

nice thread, i've just added a couple of books to the reading list.

i've been "training" with no data to this point but soon want to incorporate HR and power.



any good resources for learning/using Golden Cheetah? that is new to me and looks really interesting though loads going on and no idea how to leverage any of it.

They have a wiki, but I'm not aware of any resources per se. The metrics are stuff that have been familiar to powermeter users as they came into wider acceptance. But trainingpeaks has a good faq that explains most/all of the concepts, and there is a wattage list on google groups but its reasonably esoteric. The books will help.
The charts are pretty much the same across most of the platforms but some vary the terms so that they look unique.
I'd be happy to help in pm's if you have specific questions. I'm not an expert by any means but have been using it over several iterations.

[Mark Davison]

I just used my power meter (actually Garmin power meter pedals) to pace a social/recovery ride for my club (COGS, or Cyclists of Greater Seattle). Based on experimentation with perceived effort, I used 100 watts for cruising on gently rolling surfaces and pedaling downhill; and 150 watts for climbing. Anything that couldn't be climbed at 150 watts I walked.

100 Watts corresponded to Zone 1 for me, and 150 watts to Zone 2.

Our club's official guidelines for pacing are based on speed bands on level surfaces with no wind, an ideal case which is seldom available in Seattle. I'm revising the Ride Leader guidelines and looking for alternate pacing definitions that work in an area with rolling bike paths and short steep hills.

In my own riding, I find the power meter approach is most useful for keeping recovery rides at a low pace, and controlling effort on long climbs.

[Likes2ridefar]

How fast were you going outputting 100w on a flat assuming no other significant variable like wind..

[Mark Davison]

Around 10mph.

Here's the RideWithGPS file with all the power data.

https://ridewithgps.com/trips/145747838