Sending SOS to the PL wheelbuilders

[truth]

Originally Posted by Broccoli Cog

I have the Musson book but can't access the new spoke calculator he has. I purchased the ebook in 2015 and of course can't find my proof of purchase. Part of my problem is that I need a reliable spoke calculator that I am confident using. I am attempting to reach out to him now but I'm guessing I may need to buy the book again.

That book is fantastic. If you follow the book's guidance which includes measuring the ERD yourself and speaks to spoke length, you can't go wrong.

If you want access to a free spoke calculator Edd is great but use your own measurements as input and don't rely on its database.

[Broccoli Cog]

I agree to take the steps as Portly Puncheur has suggested. The only caveat is that I already backed off the tension on both sides. I'll try to tighten the DS spokes and leave the NDS loose to see if I can get the dish correct. I would like to see this for myself so I can learn from it.

This is an Velocity Atlas rim. It is symetrical. The hub is a NOS Shimano Deore 135 mm hub. This is a rim brake wheel.

I used the spoke calculator that is offered on Pro Wheelbuilders website. This is where I purchased the spokes. I took my own measurements with a caliper (except for ERD which I read as 605 from Velocity's website) The Pro Wheelbuilder calculator allows you to select the hub and it tells you the dimensions. It was slightly off from what I had measured but I trusted it. Maybe it was right maybe it wasn't. I just can't be sure do to my lack of experience.

One of the hardest parts of the learning experience for me has been knowing with confidence how to measure and what to put into the spoke calculator.

If anyone has an online calculator that you could recommend I'd be open to trying it.

Thanks again everyone.

Tim

[bob_in_pa]

Edit: Too late, just saw your last post.

At this point why not just detension the NDS spokes an equal amount? Say 1/2 turn to start. Then check dish and continue as necessary.
At some point you’ll need to begin adding tension to the DS but checking dish at regular intervals will tell you when.

Assuming your spoke lengths will work you should be able to get back on track.

Next time when building a rear wheel don’t turn the NDS spokes the same amount as the DS. If you’re adding 1/2 turn to the DS give NDS 1/4 turn. It won’t be perfect but should keep dish in the ballpark. Stop and measure regularly and adjust as needed.

Good luck,
Bob

[Broccoli Cog]

Originally Posted by PortlyPuncheur

These have been my favorite spoke calculators of late:

https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/
https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/
https://spokecalc.io/

Ah thank you for these recommendations!

[carpediemracing]

Late to the game but a few other thoughts/tips.

Always use the correct length spokes for a rear wheel. You might have different crosses left and right, etc. You really don't want spokes too long (poke through the tube/etc) or too short (don't get enough threads engaged on the spoke nipple).

Good quality spoke nipples are a huge help, and you want the matching tool as well. No universal tools.

Campy hubs have WAY more drive side tension than Shimano. It's a bit shocking, at least at the 10-11s level. Not sure of the most recent versions. I think SRAM is like Shimano since the cassettes interchange. Campy has a wider free hub so it uses more axle real estate, leaving less width for the drive side flange. This causes the drive side spokes to be practically vertical.

You can "lengthen" the drive side spokes by crossing them more. So 3x on drive side, radial on non drive side, for example. I used to build 28H wheels 3x on drive side (max crosses is # spokes divided by 9, drop the remainder, so 28/9 = 3, 24/9=2, etc).

The longer the spoke, the more thread "range" you have for "good" spoke tension. A super short spoke (think a 1 cm long spoke) has a very, very narrow "correct tension" window (very few threads on a spoke nipple). A long spoke (think 3 METERS long) has a very wide "correct tension" window (many threads on the spoke nipple). A longer spoke, by 10mm or whatever, can help the drive side spokes feel closer to the non drive side, in terms of tension and turning the spoke nipple.

When I build wheels, I quickly check the rim first to make sure it seems reasonably flat on a reasonably flat surface. If it doesn't rock too much then I'm okay with it, and I proceed as if it's essentially true already.

For many years I was fortunate enough to be able to visit the distributor in person, and I'd pick through the rims, just like you'd pick through 2x4s at Home Depot. I developed a (local) reputation for very strong, true wheels, but a huge part of it was starting with straight rims. Any rim that isn't straight to start with will build into a wheel that has inherent weakness. In fact, I'd unlace rims that didn't seem right and exchange the rim for a better one.

I'd use straighter rims in the back, if I had a good one and a less good one, because you can really adjust a front rim, due to the lower and even spoke tension in the wheel. You cannot "true out" stuff out of the back wheel as easily.

Starting with a rim that lays flat means that if I build up spoke tension evenly, the rim should stay relatively true, both in terms of roundness as well as left-right.

HOW TO BUILD

In order to start at some baseline, I will typically thread on the drive side spoke nipples until the last thread on the spoke just disappears from view. On the non drive I'll leave 2 threads showing.

This leaves the wheel in a "drive side biased" set up, where the rim is dished too far to the drive side. However, it's usually pretty round, and there's already a minute amount of tension on the spokes.

I squeeze the spokes to settle the rim, seat the spoke nipples, use a screwdriver to "finish the bend" for J bend spokes (the outer spokes need to be bent inward so the spoke follows the flange shape, otherwise spoke tension does it, and the wheel loosens up as the spoke settles.

Often this "pre-bending" will significantly loosen spokes. It may be that you need to do an extra turn just so the spokes aren't jangling, especially if you have spokes on the long side. You don't want the spoke nipples to turn on their own, otherwise you lose count of turns.

Then I start doing laps around the rim. Start at the valve hole as reference. Find the rim seam, usually opposite the valve hole, as it will have some distortion there, and you should keep an eye on it. If a rim is going to be "not round", it will be at the seam, and it cannot be adjusted out as easily as the seam area is usually more rigid than the rest of the rim.

Quarter turn per spoke, do only the drive side the first lap. Then both sides the second lap. Drive side the third lap. Both sides the fourth lap.

It's about here that things usually get a bit tighter, so I'll do a quick true. It's usually pretty straightforward, touching maybe 4 spokes (if doing a roundness thing) or 2-4 spokes (if doing lateral).

Once it's round I do laps again. At some point I dial back my turns to 1/8 turn, then 1/16 turn. At this point the wheel is feeling pretty finished and it's more about fine tuning. I might do a lap of "truing" where instead of turning every spoke nipple, I turn maybe 8 total. Maybe 4. And since I didn't add any tension (I tighten one, loosen one), it's not a "lap" of tension.

I think every two laps I'll squeeze all the spokes (in pairs on a side, so two left spokes together while squeezing two right spokes together at the same time) to make sure things are seated.

If I did the laps well, and the spoke nipples are seated well, there's usually very little truing to be done.

With some efficiencies (like you have a truing stand, there are spoke hole things so you can't drop a spoke nipple into the rim, you picked the right spoke length, etc), it's a straightforward thing to have a solid wheel in 20-25 minutes, add 5 minutes for a rear. For a rush build it might be 15-18 minutes. Hanging out with family at my brother's house, building my first wheel in about 10 years on a wood floor in semi-dark (watching a movie) with no truing stand, maybe an hour (it was for a front wheel even). My first wheel took me 3+ hours.

[rowebr]

Originally Posted by Broccoli Cog

One of the hardest parts of the learning experience for me has been knowing with confidence how to measure and what to put into the spoke calculator.

If anyone has an online calculator that you could recommend I'd be open to trying it.

Thanks again everyone.

Tim

Agree that its not so easy to use a spoke calculator! Roger Musson's calculator is very helpful in that regard as you can click on all the hub measurements you need to input and it shows a diagram of the relevant measurement. You need to make a one-time payment now of about $10 to use it, but you get his book as well for that price. I've paid for the access and can confirm it works great. Here is the link to his site:

https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/

[Mr.Appa]

Originally Posted by Broccoli Cog

Ah thank you for these recommendations!

You can also share your calcs so someone here can double check. I can't tell you the number of times I've incorrectly entered info into those spoke calculators!

[Broccoli Cog]

Thanks to everyone who responded. This serves as an example of how great the Paceline community can be. Sincere thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

I worked on the wheel last night and was able to achieve the proper dish. The recommendation that I give this a try for a learning opportunity was spot on. Seeing (and feeling) for ones self is often the best way.

Here is what I observed. I could visually see the dish as I made corrections. The DS spokes were closer to vertical than the NDS giving the dish appearance to accommodate the cassette. Of course I also confirmed with my dishing tool.

The other observations was that my tension meter was indicating that the DS spoke tension was out of tolerance for the rim. Going on the recommendation of no more than 130 kfg I am in the 147 to 160 range based on a 1.8 mm round spoke. I also looked at the spoke ends from the outside of the rim. I could see the threads extending past the spoke nipples but not to the point that they were exiting the spoke holes. I ultimately will take it all apart and reorder the correct spoke length and try again. Before I do that I am going to try to reduce the tension back into tolerance while attempting to true and maintain dish. I think that will be good practice for me.

This is what I learned:

1) Patience is a virtue
2) Trust but verify all measurements including ERD
3) Always use the correct spoke length
4) Check dish as I go
5) Take a break if tired/frustrated

[Vamoots58]

Originally Posted by stressstrain

it's very common to have rear wheel spoke length differ by just 2mm. I would not use a single average length for both sides. But it's probably too late to change that....

If you are confident the lacing is correct, i would drop the tension in all spokes way back and start the tensioning and truing all over. I would not want to correct 25mm off dish when the spokes are highly tensioned - it's too easy to accidentally overtension.

So...drop tension, start the true/round/dished iterative dance, and finalize tension at the end.

+1!!

[StressStrain]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

Late to the game but a few other thoughts/tips.
.
.
.
with family at my brother's house, building my first wheel in about 10 years on a wood floor in semi-dark (watching a movie) with no truing stand, maybe an hour (it was for a front wheel even). My first wheel took me 3+ hours.

Fantastic info here. Thanks for sharing!

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Broccoli Cog

Thanks to everyone who responded. This serves as an example of how great the Paceline community can be. Sincere thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

I worked on the wheel last night and was able to achieve the proper dish. The recommendation that I give this a try for a learning opportunity was spot on. Seeing (and feeling) for ones self is often the best way.

Here is what I observed. I could visually see the dish as I made corrections. The DS spokes were closer to vertical than the NDS giving the dish appearance to accommodate the cassette. Of course I also confirmed with my dishing tool.

The other observations was that my tension meter was indicating that the DS spoke tension was out of tolerance for the rim. Going on the recommendation of no more than 130 kfg I am in the 147 to 160 range based on a 1.8 mm round spoke. I also looked at the spoke ends from the outside of the rim. I could see the threads extending past the spoke nipples but not to the point that they were exiting the spoke holes. I ultimately will take it all apart and reorder the correct spoke length and try again. Before I do that I am going to try to reduce the tension back into tolerance while attempting to true and maintain dish. I think that will be good practice for me.

This is what I learned:

1) Patience is a virtue
2) Trust but verify all measurements including ERD
3) Always use the correct spoke length
4) Check dish as I go
5) Take a break if tired/frustrated

Yikes! You overtensioned the spokes by a large amount. Check the rim at the spoke holes for cracks. Where is the 130 kgf coming from too (hopefully the rim manufacturer and not from someone in this thread)? That's high in and of itself.

[Broccoli Cog]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Yikes! You overtensioned the spokes by a large amount. Check the rim at the spoke holes for cracks. Where is the 130 kgf coming from too (hopefully the rim manufacturer and not from someone in this thread)? That's high in and of itself.

This is coming from Velocity's website. They recommend a general range of 110 to 130 kgf. And your right. I have them too high. I will check the rim carefully. Thanks for that tip!