Recommend me a Builder: Calling all 650b, low-trail Paceliners

[Doug Fattic]

If you are willing to think outside of the box, students make the kind of bicycle you want in my frame building classes all the time. Everything will be custom starting with the selection of tubing and designing the frame around your optimum bicycle position. Often students enjoy creating their own lug design. I've been doing these classes for a long time (longer than anyone else actually) and know how to get students to make a professional quality frame. Of course sometimes I have to help with the hard parts. There are enough class openings that you can be riding a frame you made (or mostly made) by next summer.

[bicycletricycle]

I have ridden a small tube thin wall bike with those blades and can confirm that I would be concerned with riding that fork I am big though.

More seriously, the requirements for this bike are pretty specific, the list of builders who could build this well, especially ones who have built and ridden bikes like this before, is relatively short. That in combination with the popularity of this kind of custom ride seems to automatically lead to year plus wait lists. I wonder what the shortest amount of time one could get this made in is.

Lyon has some pre built frames that are kind of like this hanging around (I think).

Originally Posted by bicipunk

Only downsides to Boulder for me is that I need custom geometry and really would prefer lugs, skinny tubes, Schmidt SL dropouts, Compass taillight and brakes. So at that point the price of the Boulder is high enough that I might as well go to a one person shop custom builder. Also, I hear that Mike Kone and/or Waterford is hesitant to build a fork using lightweight fork blades, e.g. Kasei and put low rider mounts on it...

[Frankwurst]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

If you are willing to think outside of the box, students make the kind of bicycle you want in my frame building classes all the time. Everything will be custom starting with the selection of tubing and designing the frame around your optimum bicycle position. Often students enjoy creating their own lug design. I've been doing these classes for a long time (longer than anyone else actually) and know how to get students to make a professional quality frame. Of course sometimes I have to help with the hard parts. There are enough class openings that you can be riding a frame you made (or mostly made) by next summer.

My apologies Doug for not throwing this out there. One of Doug's classes is on my bucket list and daylight is burning and I plan on doing this as soon as I have ironed out some other details in my life that have priority. If one has the time and are the least bit interested in building their own bike this is a great option. I do not need another bike but I'm going to sell a couple to build one in Doug's class. I'd recommend researching Doug and his class and contacting him if you are the least bit interested.

[Pastashop]

Originally Posted by bicipunk

Couple questions for you Pastashop:

Did you get their proprietary headtube tailight connection?

How was the communication process with them being based out of Japan and so forth?

Mine doesn't have the proprietary connection.

The build was done as a semi-custom for someone else, actually, but turned out to work very nicely for me. I was surprised that it did, the frame having a longer top tube than I'd usually spec (like a 58.5 vs. 57 on a 58 cm seat tube). But it has a relatively slack seat tube, no toe overlap with fenders (I wear 45/46), and using a shorter stem allows me to use a longer reach bar, which gives greater difference in riding positions.

In fact, the first time I went on a longer dirt ride, the whole feel of the bike was just a notch above others in myriad little ways that made it very easy to control, to pedal hard, to get down low - for the first time I was able to ride for several miles with my back almost flat and not experience back pain. TBH, I've no clear idea what enabled that, because I've other pedigreed steel bikes with very similar / identically arranged contact points, and yet...

From what I hear, it's a very painless process to get one ordered, and customization is affordable. You can specify the features you want, and he will steer you toward what he thinks is practical. If you look thorough the various galleries on the Jitensha site and elsewhere, there seem to be examples containing the features you're looking for. But you have to be polite / nice. (FWIW, there is a builder or two in Japan that he trusts, who are certified to build for keirin, which is not a trivial thing.)

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by bicipunk

Only downsides to Boulder for me is that I need custom geometry and really would prefer lugs, skinny tubes, Schmidt SL dropouts, Compass taillight and brakes. So at that point the price of the Boulder is high enough that I might as well go to a one person shop custom builder. Also, I hear that Mike Kone and/or Waterford is hesitant to build a fork using lightweight fork blades, e.g. Kasei and put low rider mounts on it...

As they should, IMHO..

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

If you are willing to think outside of the box, students make the kind of bicycle you want in my frame building classes all the time. Everything will be custom starting with the selection of tubing and designing the frame around your optimum bicycle position. Often students enjoy creating their own lug design. I've been doing these classes for a long time (longer than anyone else actually) and know how to get students to make a professional quality frame. Of course sometimes I have to help with the hard parts. There are enough class openings that you can be riding a frame you made (or mostly made) by next summer.

This has been on my bucket list for a few years as well. My concern is brazing up some of these thinner things tubes well enough to make a solid frame for many years to come. Also, that the features with lighting, center pull mounts (I hear they need to be much more precise), internal routing, etc. would be difficult to accomplish well for a newbie. But your confident this isn't an issue?

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by Pastashop

Mine doesn't have the proprietary connection.

The build was done as a semi-custom for someone else, actually, but turned out to work very nicely for me. I was surprised that it did, the frame having a longer top tube than I'd usually spec (like a 58.5 vs. 57 on a 58 cm seat tube). But it has a relatively slack seat tube, no toe overlap with fenders (I wear 45/46), and using a shorter stem allows me to use a longer reach bar, which gives greater difference in riding positions.

In fact, the first time I went on a longer dirt ride, the whole feel of the bike was just a notch above others in myriad little ways that made it very easy to control, to pedal hard, to get down low - for the first time I was able to ride for several miles with my back almost flat and not experience back pain. TBH, I've no clear idea what enabled that, because I've other pedigreed steel bikes with very similar / identically arranged contact points, and yet...

From what I hear, it's a very painless process to get one ordered, and customization is affordable. You can specify the features you want, and he will steer you toward what he thinks is practical. If you look thorough the various galleries on the Jitensha site and elsewhere, there seem to be examples containing the features you're looking for. But you have to be polite / nice. (FWIW, there is a builder or two in Japan that he trusts, who are certified to build for keirin, which is not a trivial thing.)

Thanks for the info. That's most helpful. Ebisu moving higher on the list...

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

As they should, IMHO..

Sounds like I may need to start a new thread about what folks' opinions are about the lightweight tubing and "planing" ideas put out there by Jan....

[Kirk007]

Max at 333Fab is building a cool bike like this, but with discs, as a limited run production model - http://333fab.com/airlandsea/

[Doug Fattic]

Just to be clear, the Kaisei fork blades sold by Compass (owned by Jan Heine) and made in Japan are not light. They are heavier than the old Columbus SL fork blades but have a different shape. They have 2 features that make them more suitable for a low trail randonneuring frame. 1st they have a longer small round section at the bottom. This makes it easier to put more than 2" (5 cm) of rake to provide the low trail with a bit more compliance. And 2nd, the oval shape is more oval like the old Reynolds blades. Most road fork blades made today have the oval shape of Columbus blades. Reynolds eventually adopted the Columbus oval for marketing purposes. The more oval old Reynolds (and now new Kaisei) blades better withstand the braking forces of brazed on center pull brakes.

[bicycletricycle]

I guess maybe "light" could just be translated to lighter duty? certainly people seem to claim that they are "livelier", the ones I rode felt really lively but the whole bike was built with thin walled small diameter tubes so it is hard to figure out which part is doing what.

The longer round section roughly translates to more of the tube being smaller in diameter and less resistant to both torsional loads and impacts making a generally more flexible fork. As far as the oval goes, it is slightly larger along the major axis (1.5mm) than continental, it is also a bit narrower (3.5mm), this does seem like a nice feature in that it optimizes the material for the loads in that area. I wonder if the start out as the same size tube?

It seems hard to believe that these fork blades can be smoother riding and better for loads. I guess they could still be good enough for loads.

Anyways, they do look nice and plenty of nice people seem to like them so they must be pretty good.

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

Just to be clear, the Kaisei fork blades sold by Compass (owned by Jan Heine) and made in Japan are not light. They are heavier than the old Columbus SL fork blades but have a different shape. They have 2 features that make them more suitable for a low trail randonneuring frame. 1st they have a longer small round section at the bottom. This makes it easier to put more than 2" (5 cm) of rake to provide the low trail with a bit more compliance. And 2nd, the oval shape is more oval like the old Reynolds blades. Most road fork blades made today have the oval shape of Columbus blades. Reynolds eventually adopted the Columbus oval for marketing purposes. The more oval old Reynolds (and now new Kaisei) blades better withstand the braking forces of brazed on center pull brakes.

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

Just to be clear, the Kaisei fork blades sold by Compass (owned by Jan Heine) and made in Japan are not light. They are heavier than the old Columbus SL fork blades but have a different shape. They have 2 features that make them more suitable for a low trail randonneuring frame. 1st they have a longer small round section at the bottom. This makes it easier to put more than 2" (5 cm) of rake to provide the low trail with a bit more compliance. And 2nd, the oval shape is more oval like the old Reynolds blades. Most road fork blades made today have the oval shape of Columbus blades. Reynolds eventually adopted the Columbus oval for marketing purposes. The more oval old Reynolds (and now new Kaisei) blades better withstand the braking forces of brazed on center pull brakes.

That's super helpful information. Thanks Doug!