World Championships Discussion (With Spoilers)

[echappist]

Originally Posted by JimmyTango

I believe the "god" Greg that he was referring to is GVA, not Lemond.

In which case, even less defensible for the apotheosis of GvA (or any rider for that matter). It may be hard to believe, but I've been a fan of GvA a lot longer than Flash has, and I don't view GvA as that dominant of a classics rider, certainly not on the level of Sagan.

Between GvA's Paris Tours victory in 2011 and his Het Nieuwsblad victory in 2016, he had no classics victory of importance (a 1.1 GP Wallonie aside). He's had an annus mirabilis from Spring of 2016 to 2017, but there's no guarantee that this would continue.

One could well argue that Kwiatkowski is as good of a classics rider as GvA, as the latter has won Strade 2x, MSR 1x, Amstel 1x, E3 1x, San Sebastian 1x, and Worlds 1x. In contrast, GvA has won Het Nieuwsblad 2x, Roubaix 1x, Gent 1x, E3 1x, Paris Tours 1x, Montreal 1x, and Olympics 1x. Kwiatkowski is younger, to boot.

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by echappist

One could well argue that Kwiatkowski is as good of a classics rider as GvA, as the latter has won Strade 2x, MSR 1x, Amstel 1x, E3 1x, San Sebastian 1x, and Worlds 1x. In contrast, GvA has won Het Nieuwsblad 2x, Roubaix 1x, Gent 1x, E3 1x, Paris Tours 1x, Montreal 1x, and Olympics 1x. Kwiatkowski is younger, to boot.

I will argue this all day long Kwiatkowski is the best all around bike racer out there today.

[GregL]

My take from the drift in this thread (from Worlds RR to who's who in the classics): we are enjoying the "good old days" of one day racing. GvA, Kwiatkowski, Sagan, and Gilbert are all very talented and willing to animate races. Several others such as Kristoff and Degenkolb have had purple patches of form too. With the Boonen-Cancellara era over, it's good to have another group of exciting riders to watch. Can't wait for the 2018 spring classics!

Greg

[echappist]

Hope springs eternal. In our case, spring is the best time of the year

[BobO]

Originally Posted by GregL

Can't wait for the 2018 spring classics!

Hear Here.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

I will argue this all day long Kwiatkowski is the best all around bike racer out there today.

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

[Climb01742]

Originally Posted by JimmyTango

This morning I was listening to a podcast on the subject and it was mentioned in passing that one of the things that makes the WC RR unique is that it has no formula to the racing... by it's very nature of being run on a different course each year there is no "script" to follow... I think this is an interesting way to look at Sagan's success in the WC as compared to the Spring Classics:

The other classics are known quantities, and have long and storied histories that inform the tactics to use to win the day. I'd argue that this makes it easier to flex the muscles of both ultra-refined "specialists," and the teams with the best depth and cohesion. I know "racing is racing," and the results at the big one day races are in no way predetermined or predictable, but the classics are much less of a crap shoot thank the WC.

I think that the fact that the WC is so unpredictable plays into Sagan's hands and helps illuminate exactly what it is that makes him so rad. Thanks to the facts that the courses are always different, and the teams are less organized due to fuzzy alliances/ lack of cohesion, AND everyone is so desperate to go for the win (because there is no script saying "only X kind of rider can win on this course") the WC ends up being raced more on instinct... from the seat of your pants in a way that exposes individual riders to more vulnerabilities and really rewards the racer with the best legs and cagiest tactics.

I'd say that Sagan has become one of the strongest guys in the peloton in this sense. When give the chance to race a race where teams aren't actively trying to make him loose or protect a surgically precise specialist for a proven race plan he can out ride everyone.

GVA, Kwiat, PhilGil, and a few others are *arguably* more versatile and/ or more tactically savvy when they're on their best days, but the last few years Sagan has proven to be their equal PLUS he packs a decisively faster sprint... hence his 3 wins on 3 different courses. Probably the years of practice racing big races with no team support :P

Well said, indeed. And it points to another reason why Froome and Sagan are such a fascinating odd couple. Froome achieves his success by talent, teamwork and down to the mm precision and planning. While Sagan achieves his success by talent, not much team support and an incredible seat of the pants instinct for where to be when. To me anyway, it's just cool that two such different routes can both lead to high level success.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

And he is one heck of a team player. Look at the amount of work he did in this year's TdF. He turned himself inside out towing Froome. Talented, great work ethic, and smart.

Greg

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by echappist

Between GvA's Paris Tours victory in 2011 and his Het Nieuwsblad victory in 2016, he had no classics victory of importance (a 1.1 GP Wallonie aside). He's had an annus mirabilis from Spring of 2016 to 2017, but there's no guarantee that this would continue.

Totally fair. Until this spring, GVA had a bunch of classics seasons that look a lot like Sagan's: reliable podiums, and sparse wins.

But I think that's pretty dang common, especially at the top. Without going back to several years of results to verify, it seems to me that since Cancellara and Boonen stepped back, the Classics field has been pretty wide open: lots of talent, unpredictable races, and no one person dominant. That means that some of the best riders out there are gonna be light on wins.

Hell, after winning his WC, Phil Gil didn't win much for years; Kwiatkowski, a great all-around talent, isn't much of a threat to win the same race twice; GVA was known as a nearly man; and the holes in Sagan's palmares are clear; Kristoff was on a tear in 2015 - and naught since.

2015 looked like it was setting up a Degenkolb/Kristoff rivalry for the ages, but, well, we all saw how that shook out: Kristoff's success interrupted by apparent team dissatisfaction, and Degenkolb's career interrupted by that car collision.

[kramnnim]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

Finally, we can all agree on something.

[regularguy412]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

Day in day out, he's probably one of _the_ most dangerous guys in the group.

Mike in AR

[KarlC]

What makes Peter Sagan great?

Entertainer, non-conformist, king of consistency: as Sagan joins pro cycling’s 100 club, we look at what makes him the generation’s superstar

Words: Andy McGrath
Photographs: ASO & Offside / L'Equipe


https://rouleur.cc/editorial/peter-sagan-great/

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[carpediemracing]

Originally Posted by echappist

I saw a Dane pulling on the front for the last few Kms and wondered for whom that dude is working. Sagan's teammate, perhaps? Can't remember if Valgren was/is a teammate

Valgren rides for Astana. Scarponi rode for Astana, Sagan dedicated his win to Scarponi, so maybe Valgren wanted to "help win Worlds" for Scarponi.

Also Valgren and Sagan were teammates on Tinkov.

I know that I've worked willingly and without hesitation for friends on other teams. If in a given race I don't have a particular goal in mind (maybe finish doesn't suit me) and I have no teammates in the race, I won't hesitate to work for someone I know. They probably don't know I'm working for them, to the point that even if they were riding near me they wouldn't know. It's all subtle stuff for the most part, mainly forcing other competitors to work harder without them realizing it.

I wonder if there's a professional version of this, even for riders on different teams. Sagan could demand post-crit promoters include Valgren in a crit or whatever, or direct his team to ease while Valgren is off the front in a less important race day (like a stage where Sagan is in green and doesn't want his team to ride all day). Etc.

[ultraman6970]

I thought that sky was going to be able to do something in this worlds, specially Froome, this thing was perfect for him and his team. but since they did not get anything it means or that they were off , not in a peak or that all the foreign riders they have which make sky team great. IMO probably is the second.

[kramnnim]

Or Valgren was working for Magnus Cort Neilsen?

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

Valgren rides for Astana. Scarponi rode for Astana, Sagan dedicated his win to Scarponi, so maybe Valgren wanted to "help win Worlds" for Scarponi.

Also Valgren and Sagan were teammates on Tinkov.

I know that I've worked willingly and without hesitation for friends on other teams. If in a given race I don't have a particular goal in mind (maybe finish doesn't suit me) and I have no teammates in the race, I won't hesitate to work for someone I know. They probably don't know I'm working for them, to the point that even if they were riding near me they wouldn't know. It's all subtle stuff for the most part, mainly forcing other competitors to work harder without them realizing it.

I wonder if there's a professional version of this, even for riders on different teams. Sagan could demand post-crit promoters include Valgren in a crit or whatever, or direct his team to ease while Valgren is off the front in a less important race day (like a stage where Sagan is in green and doesn't want his team to ride all day). Etc.