Do gravel race participants care about "lining up with the pros"?

[KJMUNC]

Originally Posted by zs3889

I just found out from someone trying to sell/transfer their entry to the Belgian Waffle Ride - a single entry sells for $280...

Yep, as someone who is lining up Sunday for BWR CA, it is an expensive way to spend the day. That said, I plan to get my share of swag/waffles/beer at the finish and enjoy the atmosphere. I can ride the course any day of the week (and often do) but it's way more fun to do it with a ton of other people....and I'm willing to pay for that.

As for pros lining up....it's cool to have them racing there, but for schmoes like me, we're never going to see them after the call-up and it doesn't affect my ride, so I don't see why it's an issue. As part of the money grab, it's an effort to legitimize the race and draw more people. None of my non-cycling friends would ever come to an event of amateurs, but when you say "hey, some guys who rode the TdF are going to be there" it create an interest you can't get otherwise.

As for the women having separate events....I think that's been tried (basically women's competitive cycling up until a few years ago) and didn't work particularly well. But hey, try again and see what happens. Race organizers have combined multi-day events like BWR into a single day to try and ease conflicts with local stakeholders and residents, so I don't see them going back to multi-day, but if there's a market for a multi-day event, go for it. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't work. Hard to have your cake and eat it too in a relatively fringe sport like gravel.

[prototoast]

I think for most participants, they don't need to line up alongside the pros, but it's not always clear to me when these complaints are about the "casual" riders and when these complaints are about the "elite, but not pro" riders. I think if you stop "elite, but not pros" from riding with the "pros," you diminish the event. Especially if it turns out that some people in the "amateur" field end up finishing faster than some of the pros.

I definitely get the sense that the marginal pro, struggling to get buy with a small amount of sponsorship money, thinks they're more important than the guy with a comfortable day job who does this as a hobby, even if the latter person is just as fast.

If the elite fields remain open to all (or with reasonable qualifying standards), then it comes down to money and logistics. I'm just not sure it's financially viable to run a 44 person women's field (unbound 2023) on a separate day. Nor is it logistically feasible to run amateurs on a 2 hour delayed start at Sea Otter when it's a 2 lap course and the elite winner finished in 4 hours. And starting the slowest people later, especially for the really long races, would seem to be really tough to work out.

Ultimately, I think this is mostly a problem for the elite women. There aren't enough of them to run on their own day, and there often isn't enough daylight to start them far enough of the amateur men to ensure that at least some of them won't get caught. On the elite men's side, it seems like Keegan just rides away from the start, and until the finishing sprint at Unbound, he never sees them again (this is a more solvable problem).

[benb]

I haven't done any of these gravel events but I have experienced it at hillclimbs where Pros were there and obviously in RR, Cross, and MTB where I was in one field and the Pros were there in their field.

I think it is pretty neat, but even there (hillclimbs) they would line up the Pros in the first wave. The rest of us would have to have qualifying times to get into the first wave to actually line up with them. On my best day I missed that by a hair, but IIRC it was super cool cause that did mean I was fast enough I saw some of them in the race.

The thing with the women getting pulled by men is super lame. Again saw the same thing in the hillclimbs. The difference is too big. I remember beating some of the Pro women in said hillclimbs, but it's kind of fine there as no one is getting a meaningful draft in those races.

Cross and MTB have/had some of this two.

I'd say yah, very cool they are there on the same day, neat to see them afterwards, before, whatever. I didn't even get to go to that many of these big things and I still got way closer to or met a bunch of Pros in a way I never would in any of the ball sports. It is really a neat thing. Also running into Pros when you are JRA and riding with them even a little bit is a super cool thing in our sport. An even more rare thing.

It's cool, but structure it so it doesn't effect the racing in any category, especially women getting pulled by men who are faster than the women's field but can't compete for the podium in the men's field.

I think you have to line the elite amateurs up with the pros at least some of the time.. lots of people know someone who was a Cat 2 who beat the Pro field one day on a course that catered to their strength.. it might be the best day of someone's amateur career and that also adds something to the sport IMO.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

If the elite fields remain open to all (or with reasonable qualifying standards), then it comes down to money and logistics. I'm just not sure it's financially viable to run a 44 person women's field (unbound 2023) on a separate day. Nor is it logistically feasible to run amateurs on a 2 hour delayed start at Sea Otter when it's a 2 lap course and the elite winner finished in 4 hours. And starting the slowest people later, especially for the really long races, would seem to be really tough to work out.

I was under the impression that gravel races were run point-to-point or on one big loop (rather than multiple laps of a smaller loop). If so, then why not have an interval start? Maybe start the Elite/Pro women 15 or 20 minutes after the Elite/Pro men, and then the amateurs in one or two groups at another interval after that?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I was under the impression that gravel races were run point-to-point or on one big loop (rather than multiple laps of a smaller loop). If so, then why not have an interval start? Maybe start the Elite/Pro women 15 or 20 minutes after the Elite/Pro men, and then the amateurs in one or two groups at another interval after that?

The specific problem for the women is that non-elite amateur men are faster than many of them, and so if you give The women 20 minutes on a 10-hour race, that's really not enough. On the other hand, if you give them an hour on a 10-hour race, that pushes back the start of the amateur who might be taking 16 hours to do that race, which really stresses the organization. And they also need enough time between them and the elite men, because if you give the elite men a 15-minute Head start, that's usually fine, but if a few riders have crashes or flat tires early in the race, they can get caught by the women and then the women can hang on their wheels. So then you need even more time between the elite man and the elite women, and even more time between the elite elite women and the amateurs, and the end result is that the entire event starts getting unpleasantly long.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

The specific problem for the women is that non-elite amateur men are faster than many of them, and so if you give The women 20 minutes on a 10-hour race, that's really not enough. On the other hand, if you give them an hour on a 10-hour race, that pushes back the start of the amateur who might be taking 16 hours to do that race, which really stresses the organization. And they also need enough time between them and the elite men, because if you give the elite men a 15-minute Head start, that's usually fine, but if a few riders have crashes or flat tires early in the race, they can get caught by the women and then the women can hang on their wheels. So then you need even more time between the elite man and the elite women, and even more time between the elite elite women and the amateurs, and the end result is that the entire event starts getting unpleasantly long.

This type of thing has already been an issue in road racing, and they already have rules to address it. Many road races have multiple fields on the course at the same time, the fields separated by staggered starts. And as you say, sometimes racers from different fields will happen across each other on the course. In which case the rules explicitly say that riders from different fields cannot work together, and face disqualification if caught. Each field will have race numbers with either a different color or a different range of numbers so that riders can distinguish if they are in the same or different fields. Distinguishing between men and women racers should be even easier. And yes, I've seen racers disqualified by mixing in with riders from other fields.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This type of thing has already been an issue in road racing, and they already have rules to address it. Many road races have multiple fields on the course at the same time, the fields separated by staggered starts. And as you say, sometimes racers from different fields will happen across each other on the course. In which case the rules explicitly say that riders from different fields cannot work together, and face disqualification if caught. Each field will have race numbers with either a different color or a different range of numbers so that riders can distinguish if they are in the same or different fields. Distinguishing between men and women racers should be even easier. And yes, I've seen racers disqualified by mixing in with riders from other fields.

Right, but road races tend to have a single peloton, maybe a breakaway, race officials on the course with lead and follow cars, etc. In gravel, riders are all spread out, and roads are often unpassable by cars, or so narrow that "not drafting" isn't feasible. By my count, the top 50 men at Unbound last year were in 26 different groups. And the top 10 women were scatted in there too.

It's fine to make rules, but they may be difficult to enforce, and things like neutralizing a slower field in a road race to let the faster field pass isn't really possible.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Right, but road races tend to have a single peloton, maybe a breakaway, race officials on the course with lead and follow cars, etc. In gravel, riders are all spread out, and roads are often unpassable by cars, or so narrow that "not drafting" isn't feasible.

You just described just about every (road) time trial I've ever done. Which is why there are time trial rules about how close you ride behind another rider, and how long you are allowed to make a pass. And like you say, these rules can be difficult to enforce, but that's no reason not to have rules.

[Nomadmax]

For me it would depend on the "pro". Hinault, LeMond, Roche (the dad), Kelly and the like, oh heck yeah. Current pros would have to be one of about five guys. After that, meh.

[BRad704]

Here's my take after doing Midsouth 100 a couple of times "with the pros".

I do love lining up in the corral and seeing the pros on the front row, literally a few dozen feet away from me, but once the race starts, they are SO FAST and SO GONE that it doesn't matter at all anymore.

For the women's starts, what I've read is that the other pro women "get lost" in the crowd and you have no idea who's in front or behind you (you=pro women).

I can see a benefit to having a schedule like this, because it would give the Pro Women time to sort themselves out together, THEN the tactics can start once they've caught or been-caught after some time on the course.

• Pro/Elite Men @ 7:00am.
• Pro/Elite Women @ 7:05am
• Amateur Mass Start @ 7:15am

[shoota]

Originally Posted by BRad704

Here's my take after doing Midsouth 100 a couple of times "with the pros".

I do love lining up in the corral and seeing the pros on the front row, literally a few dozen feet away from me, but once the race starts, they are SO FAST and SO GONE that it doesn't matter at all anymore.

For the women's starts, what I've read is that the other pro women "get lost" in the crowd and you have no idea who's in front or behind you (you=pro women).

I can see a benefit to having a schedule like this, because it would give the Pro Women time to sort themselves out together, THEN the tactics can start once they've caught or been-caught after some time on the course.

• Pro/Elite Men @ 7:00am.
• Pro/Elite Women @ 7:05am
• Amateur Mass Start @ 7:15am

No chance Bobby will do a staggered start. It's not in keeping with the spirit of gravel

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by BRad704

I can see a benefit to having a schedule like this, because it would give the Pro Women time to sort themselves out together, THEN the tactics can start once they've caught or been-caught after some time on the course.

• Pro/Elite Men @ 7:00am.
• Pro/Elite Women @ 7:05am
• Amateur Mass Start @ 7:15am

This makes the most sense. The only problem is you’d have to cap the men’s pro field to avoid the slower men being caught by the fastest women (which puts us back at square one - men impacting the women’s race). Looking at Sea Otter 2024, you’d have to cap around ~50 men - men in the mid-50s were slower than the women’s winner.

As for me, as a barely mid-pack age-group nobody, I like the atmosphere of mass start and having the pros on course at the same time. If they start 20 minutes ahead of me that makes no difference. The only time I see them is neutral rollout and when they lap me.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by BRad704

Here's my take after doing Midsouth 100 a couple of times "with the pros".

I do love lining up in the corral and seeing the pros on the front row, literally a few dozen feet away from me, but once the race starts, they are SO FAST and SO GONE that it doesn't matter at all anymore.

For the women's starts, what I've read is that the other pro women "get lost" in the crowd and you have no idea who's in front or behind you (you=pro women).

I can see a benefit to having a schedule like this, because it would give the Pro Women time to sort themselves out together, THEN the tactics can start once they've caught or been-caught after some time on the course.

• Pro/Elite Men @ 7:00am.
• Pro/Elite Women @ 7:05am
• Amateur Mass Start @ 7:15am

The fastest amateur men are as fast as the lead pack of pro/elite women and 10 minutes isn't enough time. The top 20 non pro/elite men at Unbound 2023 would be intermingled with the top 10 pro/elite women. The issue is that the outspoken (maybe majority of?) pro women don't want to have any tactics with the men, they don't want to race with them at all.

[KJMUNC]

Originally Posted by Nomadmax

For me it would depend on the "pro". Hinault, LeMond, Roche (the dad), Kelly and the like, oh heck yeah. Current pros would have to be one of about five guys. After that, meh.

It's Alejandro Valverde at BWR CA....sure he's a polarizing figure and he's retired as a road racer, but can't wait to see the times he puts up on the local segments. Plus, he's a guy that I'd never get to see outside of Europe, so it's cool that he's racing (fully assuming a good chunk of my entry fee is paying his expenses )

[72gmc]

Isn't this a solved problem? Unless there's also a concern about coverage of both pro fields, and a worry that the women get jumbled up in the crowd and get less coverage. But it seems to me that top women and men get lots of coverage at Leadville, and it grids thusly:

6:30am – RACE START — Gold AND Silver
6:32:30am – Red
6:35am – Green
6:37:30am – Purple
6:40am – Orange
6:42:30am – Blue
6:45am – White
6:47:30am – Brown 1
6:50am – Brown 2