Speedvagen Warehouse Sale

[echelon_john]

On brand. ; )

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Most annoying way to have a sale ever..

i

[callmeishmael]

Obviously, we'll see what happens, and they're a fairly iconic brand, so it would be a great shame in terms of what it signifies, to me at least. It seems more and more metal builders are struggling right now, and some of those with consistently full order books are (with great respect to them) not getting any younger. If you want a top notch metal frame, I think now is the time. I hope I'm wrong but I can see there being far fewer options in 5 years.

That said, I think SV made a number of moves over the years that didn't help them, and this doesn't come as a complete surprise.

[oldguy00]

Could a private builder not make a profit if they lowered their prices to like 2500 US for a frameset?
I am -not- trying to say anything bad about their skill etc, just saying, I think a typical columbus tubeset sells -retail- for about 350 US (not sure about wholesale)?
How much time does it take a skilled builder to build that into a completed frame, and how much do they then pay wholesale for a quality paint job?

Are they shooting themselves in the foot by charging 6k etc?

[echelon_john]

I think there’s middle ground, but the tubeset and paint are only part of the picture. Welding equipment maintenance & supplies, tooling, electricity, insurance, internet, shop supplies, employment-related expenses (and contracting since I believe they contract out a lot of work) and I’m sure 20 other things I’m not thinking of all contribute to the true cost of a frame. Even with pretty efficient systems, tooling, etc designing, cutting tubes, building, painting, finishing & shipping a frame is going to take 15-20 hours (and maybe more) so once you build margin onto that for a sustainable business it’s understandable why $5-$6k isn’t out of line for a US-produced frame.

That said, big respect to anybody who can make a living on $3000 frames these days. It’s possible, there are folks doing it, but there’s not that much cushion there imo.

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Could a private builder not make a profit if they lowered their prices to like 2500 US for a frameset?
I am -not- trying to say anything bad about their skill etc, just saying, I think a typical columbus tubeset sells -retail- for about 350 US (not sure about wholesale)?
How much time does it take a skilled builder to build that into a completed frame, and how much do they then pay wholesale for a quality paint job?

Are they shooting themselves in the foot by charging 6k etc?

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Could a private builder not make a profit if they lowered their prices to like 2500 US for a frameset?
I am -not- trying to say anything bad about their skill etc, just saying, I think a typical columbus tubeset sells -retail- for about 350 US (not sure about wholesale)?
How much time does it take a skilled builder to build that into a completed frame, and how much do they then pay wholesale for a quality paint job?

Are they shooting themselves in the foot by charging 6k etc?

I dont know anything at all about their business, but perhaps they want to occupy the space they do.

Let's say they have a backlog of 25 bikes right now to build, and that's where they are comfortable, with regards to manpower and work hours.

If they suddenly lower their price to 2500/frame, and 100's of people now want a frame, that may simply be too much growth for them.

Just saying that it's possible that more sales are not always better for a small business.

[oldguy00]

Originally Posted by echelon_john

I think there’s middle ground, but the tubeset and paint are only part of the picture. Welding equipment maintenance & supplies, tooling, electricity, insurance, internet, shop supplies, employment-related expenses (and contracting since I believe they contract out a lot of work) and I’m sure 20 other things I’m not thinking of all contribute to the true cost of a frame. Even with pretty efficient systems, tooling, etc designing, cutting tubes, building, painting, finishing & shipping a frame is going to take 15-20 hours (and maybe more) so once you build margin onto that for a sustainable business it’s understandable why $5-$6k isn’t out of line for a US-produced frame.

That said, big respect to anybody who can make a living on $3000 frames these days. It’s possible, there are folks doing it, but there’s not that much cushion there imo.

You may very well be right.......but I remember a while back when steel builders were getting up into the 5k+ range, you could still get a custom steel frameset from Marinoni in Montreal for 1500 Cad. Now not saying Marinoni's paint job was the same as Joe Bell, but otherwise they were a business in a building, custom building frames with the same columbus tubesets....

[oldguy00]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I dont know anything at all about their business, but perhaps they want to occupy the space they do.

Let's say they have a backlog of 25 bikes right now to build, and that's where they are comfortable, with regards to manpower and work hours.

If they suddenly lower their price to 2500/frame, and 100's of people now want a frame, that may simply be too much growth for them.

Just saying that it's possible that more sales are not always better for a small business.

OK but I thought we were kind of talking about builders struggling for business.
I agree, if they have a constant backlog of 25 frames at 6k each, then hell yeah stay the course.

[unterhausen]

Looking at the price of tubing is no way to calculate the costs of building a frame. That's just the start of it, and a lot of framebuilders have made that mistake and then gone under because they couldn't afford to make frames.

Originally Posted by echelon_john

That said, big respect to anybody who can make a living on $3000 frames these days. It’s possible, there are folks doing it, but there’s not that much cushion there imo.

I don't think anyone is making a living on frames that cost that much. Someone else supporting them or at least is paying their health insurance, they aren't saving for retirement, etc. Speedvagen does their own paint, correct? Even so, paint is very expensive. If a builder is having someone else paint their frames, that's the major cost of the entire build.

So someone building for $2500-3000 is making minimal wage, at best. And there is a non-zero chance that a builder has to occasionally redo a paintjob or an entire frame, either due to a screwup on their part or their customer's part.
There goes the proceeds from a number of frames.

Speedvagen is a real business, their costs are higher than some guy building frames at night in their garage.

[echelon_john]

I hear you. Brand definitely plays a role in premium pricing. I bought a frameset years ago from a respected builder for $$$$ that had all kinds of niggling issues. Bought from another respected US builder for 30% the cost of the other one and had a fantastic experience and end product. So it’s certainly possible to make (and buy) a great product for less. But maybe it gets to what you said about a small, individual builder being able to drive some economies, and potentially work out of a shop that’s small & owned outright, for example.

Originally Posted by oldguy00

You may very well be right.......but I remember a while back when steel builders were getting up into the 5k+ range, you could still get a custom steel frameset from Marinoni in Montreal for 1500 Cad. Now not saying Marinoni's paint job was the same as Joe Bell, but otherwise they were a business in a building, custom building frames with the same columbus tubesets....

[callmeishmael]

I doubt they would be selling off assets, and talking on IG about a new way of evolving the business, if they had $150k worth of back orders.

It may shed some light on the discussion that I agreed this week to work with a relatively small UK builder on a new XCR frame. I am paying cost, and getting my geometry choices; in return, the bike will be displayed at a number of shows, feature in some publicity material, and the builder is having some say in aesthetic choices.

Would anyone like to guess what 'cost' is on an XCR frame (£)?

[oldguy00]

Originally Posted by unterhausen

Looking at the price of tubing is no way to calculate the costs of building a frame. That's just the start of it, and a lot of framebuilders have made that mistake and then gone under because they couldn't afford to make frames.


I don't think anyone is making a living on frames that cost that much. Someone else supporting them or at least is paying their health insurance, they aren't saving for retirement, etc. Speedvagen does their own paint, correct? Even so, paint is very expensive. If a builder is having someone else paint their frames, that's the major cost of the entire build.

So someone building for $2500-3000 is making minimal wage, at best. And there is a non-zero chance that a builder has to occasionally redo a paintjob or an entire frame, either due to a screwup on their part or their customer's part.
There goes the proceeds from a number of frames.

Speedvagen is a real business, their costs are higher than some guy building frames at night in their garage.

Maybe it depends on how many frames they can fabricate per year, working 8 hours a day? If it takes the average builder a week to put a frame together, then I agree with you. On the other hand, if they can cut the tubes to spec and weld together 2 frames per day, thats a lot different! I honestly have no idea how long it takes.

[rallizes]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

You may very well be right.......but I remember a while back when steel builders were getting up into the 5k+ range, you could still get a custom steel frameset from Marinoni in Montreal for 1500 Cad. Now not saying Marinoni's paint job was the same as Joe Bell, but otherwise they were a business in a building, custom building frames with the same columbus tubesets....

Perhaps Marinoni spends less on Kool Aid?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Maybe it depends on how many frames they can fabricate per year, working 8 hours a day? If it takes the average builder a week to put a frame together, then I agree with you. On the other hand, if they can cut the tubes to spec and weld together 2 frames per day, thats a lot different! I honestly have no idea how long it takes.

There's a huge variation in how long it takes for a builder to build a frame. A proficient builder with an efficient work environment can probably build a basic TIG welded frame in half a day. On the other hand, for more artisan frames, there is almost no limit to how long a builder could spend. In the case of Speedvagen, they probably spent more time on paint than they did cutting and welding their frames.

[cbraden]

Originally Posted by callmeishmael

i doubt they would be selling off assets, and talking on ig about a new way of evolving the business, if they had $150k worth of back orders.

It may shed some light on the discussion that i agreed this week to work with a relatively small uk builder on a new xcr frame. I am paying cost, and getting my geometry choices; in return, the bike will be displayed at a number of shows, feature in some publicity material, and the builder is having some say in aesthetic choices.

Would anyone like to guess what 'cost' is on an xcr frame (£)?

2150?

[oldguy00]

Originally Posted by rallizes

Perhaps Marinoni spends less on Kool Aid?

No Twizzlers included!

But they are still 'stiff yet compliant, and corner on rails'......