What to do when builder becomes unresponsive?

[hampco]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure what The Framebuilder's Collective does, but every time I read a thread like this I thank my lucky stars that the only guys I've given my money to were members of that esteemed group, and I tell myself I will only ever do future business with those guys. It's like the Good Housekeeping Seal-Of-Approval for framebuilders!

You left this part out: http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/

Not sure this helps your case, but...

[Villgaxx]

Originally Posted by hampco

You left this part out: http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/

Not sure this helps your case, but...

Is it me, or does that link go nowhere?

[ANAO]

Originally Posted by Villgaxx

Is it me, or does that link go nowhere?

Exactly.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by hampco

You left this part out: http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/

I originally intended to include that link...until I noticed it was dead. A bit on sleuthing suggests the site's been down since 2013? Whassup wit dat?


P.S. Wait, Hampsten's not a member? Okay, you guys get a pass, I'd consider giving you money also.

[unterhausen]

wasn't it hacked back then? Selling watches?

[azrider]

Originally Posted by BobO

As someone who has been too close to addictions too many times, I can tell you that you do him no service by not holding him responsible. Addicts need people to hold them accountable, that is part of the path towards recovery.

This.

[FlashUNC]

Its a commendable sentiment, but this isn't like the guy is his brother or close friend and he's enabling the behavior by not holding him accountable.

He's a dude who tried to get some bike frames for a team on a deal, and probably had some parts he gave up that are long since gone.

He doesn't owe it to this dude to become some part of his accountability matrix or really to get involved beyond "You don't have my stuff? And no means of realistically making me whole anytime soon? Alright, see ya."

I'd love reading the story about how Billy makes amends at some point down the road, but that wish and a nickel won't buy you a cup of coffee in Brooklyn these days. A lot to be said, sucks as it does, for just taking your lumps, learning some lessons and moving on.

[BobO]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Its a commendable sentiment, but this isn't like the guy is his brother or close friend and he's enabling the behavior by not holding him accountable.

He's a dude who tried to get some bike frames for a team on a deal, and probably had some parts he gave up that are long since gone.

He doesn't owe it to this dude to become some part of his accountability matrix or really to get involved beyond "You don't have my stuff? And no means of realistically making me whole anytime soon? Alright, see ya."

I'd love reading the story about how Billy makes amends at some point down the road, but that wish and a nickel won't buy you a cup of coffee in Brooklyn these days. A lot to be said, sucks as it does, for just taking your lumps, learning some lessons and moving on.

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

[azrider]

Originally Posted by BobO

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

Your message came through loud and clear.....to me at least.

I have absolutely no clue what "accountability matrix" means or where those comments were coming from so I just ignored it. Try that next time

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by BobO

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

Which is fine from a best practice point of view, but if this imbroglio has been such a mental/fiscal time suck so far with little-to-no possibility of any restitution for the aggrieved party, better to cut your losses and move on rather than beating your head against the proverbial wall all in the service of what's best for the addict.

The screwed over guy without bikes may not be doing the addict any favors by hitting the bricks, but I'd argue he's probably doing himself a favor by not compounding a bad decision with continuing to have this mess in his life.

I believe I got the initial context of your first statement, but I think you're placing entirely too much emotional investment from the OP to the builder. He's not his brother or close friend or family member. He isn't going to have a seat at the intervention. Or be his sponsor at meetings, or any of that kind of stuff. Absolutely those people need to hold him accountable. A random guy he did a bad business deal with that -- apparently -- the OP can walk away from and move on with life? No way.

[BobO]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Which is fine from a best practice point of view, but if this imbroglio has been such a mental/fiscal time suck so far with little-to-no possibility of any restitution for the aggrieved party, better to cut your losses and move on rather than beating your head against the proverbial wall all in the service of what's best for the addict.

The screwed over guy without bikes may not be doing the addict any favors by hitting the bricks, but I'd argue he's probably doing himself a favor by not compounding a bad decision with continuing to have this mess in his life.

OK, that's fine for you, if you don't want to pursue the addict because you feel it isn't in your best interest. I have no criticism of that. We are all free to make those choices.

However, my point is that tip toeing around the issue because you have sympathy for his condition being a disease is the wrong reason to not pursue your claims. Addiction is not that kind of disease and holding their feet to the fire does not make you a bad person. In fact, the opposite is true as it can force the addict to think. I'm not claiming that you should pursue him for his benefit, I'm saying that it's not to his benefit to not pursue him.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by BobO

OK, that's fine for you, if you don't want to pursue the addict because you feel it isn't in your best interest. I have no criticism of that. We are all free to make those choices.

However, my point is that tip toeing around the issue because you have sympathy for his condition being a disease is the wrong reason to not pursue your claims. Addiction is not that kind of disease and holding their feet to the fire does not make you a bad person. In fact, the opposite is true as it can force the addict to think. I'm not claiming that you should pursue him for his benefit, I'm saying that it's not to his benefit to not pursue him.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by azrider

Your message came through loud and clear.....to me at least.

I have absolutely no clue what "accountability matrix" means or where those comments were coming from so I just ignored it. Try that next time

Or have a conversation to get clarity and see you don't disagree about that much after all.

Whatever floats your boat.

[unterhausen]

I guess this is getting really OT, but seems to me that the only thing that could be done is to get him in legal trouble. Does that really help an addict? Seems like he's trying to rehab himself, if that part of the story can be believed.

I had a painter that took money for work he didn't do. I still feel bad about his situation. Any time I paid him, he would go get really drunk. And he did enough to get me to the point where I could finish my project, so I forgive him.

It is interesting how many unstable people get into framebuilding and do a few nice frames and then flake out. Or do a lot of nice frames and then flake out. This problem seems to have died down now that the buzz is gone. One thing that causes it is that there is a disconnect between how much money it looks like you will make vs. how much you really make.

[msngr]

ANAO, if you get into his shop, see if you can grab my track frame. Says "Pink Rhino" on it, I think. I know it has FTW on it, as it was a collaboration with Frank the Welder.