"Signature" dropouts vs Hooded dropouts

[unterhausen]

I have thought about making my own dropouts, but there are lots of nice dropouts on offer. I have seen people make do with dropouts where they should have done something else. I try not to do that. But most front dropouts are made for a particular style of fork, and I want to build some that aren't really that style.

Originally Posted by Nomadmax

Building the frame and throwing on an outsourced carbon fork is a big no for me.

I never really thought about buying a fork until they started selling tapered head tubes. And now Alex Meade has head lugs for tapered headtubes, so I'm pretty sure that for me, buying a fork is inevitable. Never seen a tapered steel fork that looks right to me, and I try not to build things that don't look right.

Of course, my frames are built for an exclusive and exceptionally tasteful clientele: me. So I'm not really concerned about what the hoi polloi thinks.

[EB]

I can’t see any good reason for a tapered steerer on a steel fork. Given the properties of the material, just seems like it will make the fork unnecessarily stiff and heavy.

Even the reasons for doing it with carbon forks on road bikes are pretty tenuous but that’s a separate discussion.

[72gmc]

I have stainless dropouts, Ritchey if memory serves, on my Davidson. And lugs from some e-Richie guy! Freely offered by Bill as part of his consideration for what I was going to do with the frame, e.g., ride it all the time in all conditions. I’ve never thought of them as an anything other than a positive attribute.

[timto]

Originally Posted by sirvelo

I recently had an interesting chat with a discerning gentleman on the topic of dropouts.

As you'd expect from someone who has had an extensive experience with various custom bikes, he had some fairly strong opinions, but what struck me the most was him regarding any builder that uses hooded (breezer) dropouts to be inferior than those using proprietary "signature" dropouts.

His point was that using third-party dropouts didn't quite make the bike "100% custom", and in his view, having a "signature" dropout was what set the so-called "master builders" (Kirk, Sachs, Serotta, Firefly, Vanilla etc etc) apart from the rest. He went on to say that, although he's had a few Pegorettis, he never regarded Dario to be in the same leagues as Kirk or Sachs for this reason.

I think his point is valid to some extent, and of course there is an increasing number of brands now using signature dropouts thanks to 3D printing (No 22, Breadwinner, Stinner, Moots etc).

But I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the builders who don't have a signature dropout to be inferior, especially when there are so many reputable builders such as Baum, English, Mosaic and Bingham using hooded (or variants of it) dropouts.

So - is having a signature that an important and meaningful standard that sets builders apart, or is this another look-at-me-I-know-more-than-you custom bike wankery?

I get what the guy is saying - There are builders that can...

Hand carve/make lugs
Make their own forks
Make their own stems, decaleur, racks
machine their own small parts and fully integrate all kinds of stuff
Do incredible paint themselves and detail like crazy
Make or heavily modify the drop outs...

Brian Chapman is an example of the above - and has even made his own brakes on several occasions. Yes made BRAKES. JP Weigle, Bishop, Coast to a lesser degree (those guys don't do their own paint)

Those capabilities are awesome, but are just part of the picture. Plenty of excellent builders that don't check all the above boxes but may check others e.g. ti, carbon, disc, coupler, suspension, folding, cargo, tandem, trike, timelines, customer service, experience, price yadda yadda yadda...

[rallizes]

"He went on to say that, although he's had a few Pegorettis, he never regarded Dario to be in the same leagues as Kirk or Sachs for this reason."

LOLOLOL

[72gmc]

Rereading the OP, this person seems to value the maker’s touch from rear dropout to front dropout and all points between. Which is fine as his personal value scale. Doesn’t match my scale, which is also fine.

[pdonk]

I have two bikes with hooded drop outs - one with name brand drops outs, one custom for the brand, a bike with no name drop outs and a bike with custom drop outs.

All were built by people in North America that are respected in the industry.

This seems like looking at the smallest thing to try and insult the owner of the bike and the brands.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by EB

I can’t see any good reason for a tapered steerer on a steel fork. Given the properties of the material, just seems like it will make the fork unnecessarily stiff and heavy.

Even the reasons for doing it with carbon forks on road bikes are pretty tenuous but that’s a separate discussion.

In my opinion, steel disc brake forks should be heavy, I refuse to live on the edge. But as far as tapered head tubes and carbon forks on steel bikes, sometimes I do things for amusement, that should be understood on a forum where N+1 is the rule. I like the way tapered headtubes look, no accounting for taste.

As far as tapered carbon forks on a steel bike, there are far better choices of forks with tapered steerers. Sometimes you have to compromise because of the state of the market. It's backwards, I know. But putting a tapered head tube on a steel frame adds almost no weight nowadays and has no other compromises. Granted, it does tend to make a carbon fork the only choice that makes sense.

[EB]

Originally Posted by unterhausen

In my opinion, steel disc brake forks should be heavy, I refuse to live on the edge. But as far as tapered head tubes and carbon forks on steel bikes, sometimes I do things for amusement, that should be understood on a forum where N+1 is the rule. I like the way tapered headtubes look, no accounting for taste.

As far as tapered carbon forks on a steel bike, there are far better choices of forks with tapered steerers. Sometimes you have to compromise because of the state of the market. It's backwards, I know. But putting a tapered head tube on a steel frame adds almost no weight nowadays and has no other compromises. Granted, it does tend to make a carbon fork the only choice that makes sense.

Right, I mean, if I bought a steel road frame intending to run a carbon fork on it, I'd probably look for one with a 44mm or tapered head tube to accommodate a wide range of forks.

But that's just conceding to the reality of the market - aesthetically, I prefer 1 1/8" (or even 1") head tubes, and functionally I'm really not convinced the tapered carbon steerer has a benefit to the rider (though there may be reasons why it makes carbon fork construction easier).

As for steel forks, there's just no need for a steel fork to have a tapered steerer, even with the added weight and stiffness needed for disc brakes. There are non-suspension corrected bike-packing rigs with disc brakes and steel mountain bike forks that have straight 1 1/8" steerers and they handle things like the Tour Divide. Even if the head tube is tapered as a concession to carbon forks or suspension forks, the steel fork can have a straight steerer.

[Gabe77]

The original reason for the traditional dropouts was the way they were assembled - by slotting in and brazing. TIG assembly takes geometry out of the equation and its just an aesthetic thing like straight vs curved forks and seatstays. Strictly speaking trad dropouts are superior since they will always be lighter, although hooded gives more welding surface to work on. In actual racing I'd say that trad is much easier to execute a fast wheel change on - although the industry has pretty much given up on that with axles.
As for the tapered headtubes this is purely from a manufacturing objective of lowering mass while preserving stiffness. The only reason metal steering tubes followed was to fit into such headtubes. I'm seeing anecdotally lots of riders casting away the obsession with stiffness and starting to value springiness again. That's a good thing.

[parallelfish]

Yawn…

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by Alistair

That said, if a builder is using more OTS parts vs hand-made, I'd expect the price to reflect that (all else being equal, which is probably isn't since we're talking bespoke bicycles).

Nearly everything is OTS though for 90% of builders. Its what they do with them that matters.

Head tubes, frame tubes, dropouts. Very rare is the builder that's doing anything unique in one of these areas, let alone all of them. This is why vanilla/speedvagen charge the premium that they do I guess.

[mstateglfr]

I really like the creativity that some builders put into their rear dropouts/TA.
With that said, I have never once thought that a builder who usesstock dropouts isn't a 'real' builder or isn't on the same level as builders that make their own dropouts.

There are simply too many other parts of the frame that can be unique and customized for me to think the dropouts are a what separates the real from the imposter.
Dropouts are simply one area where a builder can create a signature look. No different from seatstay junctions, lug shaping, etc.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

Dropouts are simply one area where a builder can create a signature look. No different from seatstay junctions, lug shaping, etc.

Agreed.

I think it also depends on what you are looking for in a builder - are you looking for something that isnt available from an existing brand, or are you looking for the best version of something that you already own?

[happycampyer]

The thing about hooded dropouts is that they are very strong (albeit a pita to work a QR or TA lever around). I recall having a conversation with Scott Hock about dropouts when he was still at Serotta. When I mentioned the benefits of hooded dropouts, his reply was “the [Serotta’s] 3-D dropouts are hooded.” It hadn’t occurred to me before that that the parts that joined the chainstay and seatstay were very pared down hoods. I’m pretty sure Scott had a hand in designing the No. 22 dropouts.

When you spend time talking to the top builders, you learn a lot about how they solve different problems. Brad Bingham had his TA dropout assembly on display at a NAHBS several years ago, and it was ingenious (iirc, Brad designed the mechanism in the Moots cinch post). His dropouts are definitely not off-the-shelf.

To paraphrase e-Richie, the dropout is not the frame. One thing the top builders all have in common is that they put an enormous amount of thought and skill into the fabrication of their frames. What’s interesting is how diverse the outcomes are.