Caroline Mani can't find a sponsor.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

Pointing at a pay gap is not the same as proving a systemic unfair disparity in wages based on gender.

US Women's World Champion Hockey team.

US Women World Cup winning soccer team.

Payouts in prize money on the men's and women's tennis circuit.

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Seems pretty systemic.

[93legendti]

I commend her and wish her all the best.


I admire the people who feel passionately about her career and our stepping up and gifting generously to her gofundme project.

[John H.]

I have heard that Caroline Mani is not the most popular rider with her fellow racers.
Maybe that also extends to people in the bike biz?

[pncguy]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

I am not sure how true your statement is, I do not follow the availability of funding for professional cyclocross racers. However, the persistent disparity between the popularity (and availability of funding) of male and female sports would certainly make this plausible. Assuming that it is true, what do you think your comment means? Pointing out a disparity between the sexes is easy (sometimes inflammatory), trying to understand why it exists is much more difficult.

Just curious, do you have a larger point? Or are you just pointing out a fact about the differences between the availability of funding for male and female athletes without some kind of larger agenda?

It seems to me that when people say something like this they are usually trying to imply some sort of injustice without doing the work of explaining how it is one. I think that it may be dangerous to just assume that any difference between groups of people is automatically some sort of injustice.

I do hope that she does find a way to fund her dreams.

Not trying to be a fanboy of biketrike here, but I have noticed that your/his comments on this forum frequently are well considered, calm, careful, and challenging. I wish more people in the world would discuss things like you/he do/es.

[bicycletricycle]

If these sports get less fan attention why should they get equal pay? Sport is an entertainment business, more eyeballs more money.

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

US Women's World Champion Hockey team.

US Women World Cup winning soccer team.

Payouts in prize money on the men's and women's tennis circuit.

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Seems pretty systemic.

[fiamme red]

Sorry, but this is not quite persuasive to me:

Cycling and especially cyclocross is not only my passion in life, it has become my way of living. It helps me to be who I am, to feel alive every morning when I wake up, to challenge myself, to be a better person.

I want to continue to be on more podiums, challenge myself even more, interact with the supporters, the fans, share my love and passion for the sport with all of you.

I know you all have a dream deep inside of you and I hope my determination can help you to go after your own dreams.

The season begins early September, so I'm asking for your help to be able to travel to races, continue to race my bike as hard as I can, share my experience, and give back to the sport I love so much.

Asking for hand-outs from strangers in order to pursue one's dreams (and offering nothing in return) is laughable. I guess that the satisfaction of seeing her on the podium again and the inspiration to follow their own dreams is enough of a reward for those who contribute on GoFundMe?

What she says about wanting to give back to the sport, share her love and passion for it, and interact with her fans is rather intangible. What does that mean, signing autographs?

[Bruce K]

Gee, John H, where have you "heard" that?

Do you know her or understand her situation?

Go back and re-read the fraction of the story that is public.

Have you ever tried to find sponsorship for anything? Richie, and some of the other posters understand just how difficult it is to find and keep sponsors, and in today's economy how hard it is to replace one.

When her situation with Raleigh-Clement fell apart she was their "standard bearer"/most successful athlete and there were folks who stepped up and helped get her to Worlds.

The target amount will get her through a domestic season as a one-woman independent racer with virtually no support for a mechanic, training bikes, etc. it will be a totally pay as she goes like every club racer but at a pro level.

This will be a very difficult year, even if this works.

BK

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Define "peer races". Do you mean equal time and/or equal distance?

[93KgBike]

It seems to me that professional sports are businesses first, for both the competitors and the sponsors. Perhaps she and her cohort should go fund a demonstration tour or something. I don't have a problem with her financing a pro-tour season with donations, but I am betting that race sponsors would prefer as few public-financed riders in the field as possible.

I wish her all the luck.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Define "peer races". Do you mean equal time and/or equal distance?

Not necessarily, but I'm baffled why there isn't, especially for the classics, a women's race run the same weekend as the men. What's the reasoning behind not running, say, a women's Roubaix on a saturday and the men on Sunday?

You can tweak time and distsance and all that jazz.

Seems even easier with the Grand Tours. You have this roving race structure for a month, and all you can find is either a crit around the Champs or a run up Izoard? C'mon.

It's the UCI as much as the race promoters. Just disappointing all around, particularly when you have races on par, like the Olympics road race, the women's race ends up being every bit as compelling as the men's.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

If these sports get less fan attention why should they get equal pay? Sport is an entertainment business, more eyeballs more money.

So you're arguing the women's world cup soccer team -- which wins the thing regularly and is hugely popular here in the States -- should get fewer resources than the men, who never even get close to a semi-final round, much less winning the thing? If you're judging it as an entertainment business, they're a heckuva lot more valuable than the men's team, yet still get paid less and have to play on inferior surfaces.

It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. No one watches because no one can watch, so it becomes the justification for not investing further in it and growing a fanbase.

My argument systemically is the bodies involved in promoting sport -- whatever it may be -- do a dis-service to a decent segment of their long-term potential growth by using this kind of same lazy tautology to avoid investing. The UCI shouldn't care who's riding the bike or watching the racing, as long as someone's doing it. The USOC should be supporting the teams that show promise and success, same with USA Soccer or anyone else.

So its a macro problem that creates all these knock-on downstream effects, like Caroline Mani having to gofundme a racing season.

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

US Women's World Champion Hockey team.

US Women World Cup winning soccer team.

Payouts in prize money on the men's and women's tennis circuit.

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Seems pretty systemic.

well cyclocross is one exception to these though. lots of USAC events are equal payout and have been for some time. UCI C1/C2 events are equal payouts this year. and women's payouts for world cups have been bumped up.

my question is what exactly happened with Mani that she didn't start looking into this and asking for help until now? clearly, she had the floor pulled from under her last season, so why wait until now? unless something fell through again...?

it's strange that she can't find a team, for sure, given her talent. but it could all come down to timing of when she found out she needed to pursue it (or when she decided to) versus contracts other teams already had set in place for the upcoming season(s). can't just throw you onto a team generally, unless they get more money or someone else leaves. and if the team's full and preparations are underway, that's how it goes... sucks, but that may just be all there is to this. of course, I'm totally guessing...

[bicycletricycle]

I think that the argument for equal funding in publically funded sports can be made pretty strongly. Much more strongly than in commercial sport.

Lack of viewing / lack of funding is a self perpetuating cycle, however, self perpetuating cycles are neither good nor bad. Like the chicken and the egg they develop slowly over time, well adapted to their environments with seemingly nobody at the wheel.

The increased funding and viewership of male sports is not the result of some simple conspiracy or arbitrary decision. It is the result of all of history leading up to this point in time. Perhaps this perpetuating cycle does need to be updated, the times are changing.

Who has the authority to claim that it is fundamentally wrong?

We all do, by voting with our eyeballs/wallet.

However, if people continue to like/watch male sports more than female sports I don't see how anyone can claim that this is unfair or incorrect.

Well a person who dislikes their culture because they only see what is wrong with it and feels entitled to tell everyone about how they think everyone else in the world needs to act can/will tell people what to do.

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

So you're arguing the women's world cup soccer team -- which wins the thing regularly and is hugely popular here in the States -- should get fewer resources than the men, who never even get close to a semi-final round, much less winning the thing? If you're judging it as an entertainment business, they're a heckuva lot more valuable than the men's team, yet still get paid less and have to play on inferior surfaces.

It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. No one watches because no one can watch, so it becomes the justification for not investing further in it and growing a fanbase.

My argument systemically is the bodies involved in promoting sport -- whatever it may be -- do a dis-service to a decent segment of their long-term potential growth by using this kind of same lazy tautology to avoid investing. The UCI shouldn't care who's riding the bike or watching the racing, as long as someone's doing it. The USOC should be supporting the teams that show promise and success, same with USA Soccer or anyone else.

So its a macro problem that creates all these knock-on downstream effects, like Caroline Mani having to gofundme a racing season.

[John H.]

I have heard it from other athletes who have competed against her.

You are making assumptions about me- and you know nothing about me.

I have actually ridden for teams of decent and meager budget, started teams, and worked in sports director capacity for cycling teams.

Also, my wife has started and run teams and worked for top level US road teams for several years.

Let's say that I am more versed in cycling teams and women's cycling than the average bear.

After all of that, I would never want to start or run a cycling team again.

I do know how hard it is to find sponsors. Super hard.

I also know that is can be hard even to get existing sponsors to pay up.

What I mean by that is that a sponsor commits to something- Say 100k, in 4 25k payments throughout the year at 3 month intervals.
They make the 1st one, late on the 2nd one, you might never see the 3rd and 4th.

So the team ends up giving the riders equipment in lieu of salary and/or expenses owed, and the team ends up losing money by the end of the year.
No more team. Vicious cycle.

You seem to feel strongly about her situation. I hope that you make a nice donation to her go fund me campaign.

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Gee, John H, where have you "heard" that?

Do you know her or understand her situation?

Go back and re-read the fraction of the story that is public.

Have you ever tried to find sponsorship for anything? Richie, and some of the other posters understand just how difficult it is to find and keep sponsors, and in today's economy how hard it is to replace one.

When her situation with Raleigh-Clement fell apart she was their "standard bearer"/most successful athlete and there were folks who stepped up and helped get her to Worlds.

The target amount will get her through a domestic season as a one-woman independent racer with virtually no support for a mechanic, training bikes, etc. it will be a totally pay as she goes like every club racer but at a pro level.

This will be a very difficult year, even if this works.

BK

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

I think that the argument for equal funding in publically funded sports can be made pretty strongly. Much more strongly than in commercial sport.

Lack of viewing / lack of funding is a self perpetuating cycle, however, self perpetuating cycles are neither good nor bad. Like the chicken and the egg they develop slowly over time, well adapted to their environments with seemingly nobody at the wheel.

The increased funding and viewership of male sports is not the result of some simple conspiracy or arbitrary decision. It is the result of all of history leading up to this point in time. Perhaps this perpetuating cycle does need to be updated, the times are changing.

Who has the authority to claim that it is fundamentally wrong?

We all do, by voting with our eyeballs/wallet.

However, if people continue to like/watch male sports more than female sports I don't see how anyone can claim that this is unfair or incorrect.

Well a person who dislikes their culture because they only see what is wrong with it and feels entitled to tell everyone about how they think everyone else in the world needs to act can/will tell people what to do.

It is far easier to watch men's racing than women's racing, even as infuriating as access to the men's races may be. Tough to get fans when you can't even see the product. For example, the marquee women's stage race on the calendar is run right next to the freakin' Tour de France. In Italy. Brilliant.

You're arguing this is happening in some kind of vacuum with the invisible hand of the marketplace putting these kinds of structures in place, when there are actors who could be doing much more to make a commitment that races that involve the other 50% of the global population might also make for compelling viewing. Who's going to argue against watching more bike racing? The Tour de Flanders women's race this year was won by an American for pete's sake, in a sprint arguably more exciting than even Gilbert's escape. But its tough ot make Coryn Rivera the next American cycling star when you gotta "watch" the race on Twitter updates.