How to prod a painter

[fuzzalow]

I am no shill for the builder & painter custom bike sub-industry. But as a client you have painted (!) yourself into a corner with expectations more akin to learned mass market consumerism than the ways of sole proprietorship.

Every one of these gripe threads all center on your dissatisfaction pertaining to turnaround time. Stop. You hanging around here should give you insight as to what to expect, even if it is not your first rodeo.

The thing to keep in mind is has this painter (or builder) ever failed on delivering a commission? Because if it is concerning delivery time, even with a 6-month variability, I am of the mind to simply not worry about it and let it run. Never take on a restore (which is what a repaint basically entails) project with time pressure already built in from day 1.

You might have other bikes to ride - consider this one on the shelf for however long it takes to get it back and rebuilt.

In fairness, some of these guys are not the best communicators and they will often cave to your nagging just to avoid conflict while digging a deeper hole in telling you what you wanted to hear. And in fairness to you, you were told things and given estimates that might have been very optimistic and through the mishegas of the painters own process makes for a delivery date that had no hope of being hit. But here in the custom bike sub-industry, you are less a customer and more a client - deal collaboratively with this guy and save your entitled consumerist for the corporate chain stores.

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by John H.

If his last name sounds like kitten you might be in trouble.
If his last name sounds like sailor you might be in double trouble.

...and if it sounds like hell, you should have no problem.

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

The reason I was asking the name is to help the other guys, but well...

I think that until the issue is resolved, it is better to keep identities private.

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

I am no shill for the builder & painter custom bike sub-industry. But as a client you have painted (!) yourself into a corner with expectations more akin to learned mass market consumerism than the ways of sole proprietorship.

I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote. See below for why.

Originally Posted by Jeff N.

...and if it sounds like hell, you should have no problem.

Yes, and why is that?

It is certainly NOT because JB is an "artist", or is extremely talented, or is beholden to some kind of magic dust in his workshop, which may or may not appear on any given day/week/month....

It ironic, actually, because while most of these people are not JB, nor have his talent, what they truly lack is the simplest thing to learn and exercise, which is professional conduct, sole proprietor or not.

The desire/ability to correctly estimate the cost and duration of a project; the desire/ability to communicate promptly and clearly with a client; the desire/ability to deliver on said promises 9 times out of 10, because of professional pride and solid ethics if nothing else; the desire/ability to not be rude, to be honest, and to do one's absolute best as often as possible; etc.

All this other crap, non-communication, endless excuses, etc. is shameful, immature, "the dog ate my homework" complete bs 9 times out of 10.

There is no "magic" in proper conduct; it is simply part and parcel of being a professional. Non-pros (whether they purportedly paint bicycles, maintain yards, build buildings, sell via drones, or surgically repair hearts) can find something else to do, and stop wasting our time and our money, if they are unwilling to engage in the most basic professional behavior.

[NHAero]

I think if I was in your position I would put out a call for a Paceline member to pick up your frame and send it back to you (or if you can find a more reliable painter, directly on to that shop.) As others have said, if the frame does finally show up and something isn't right, you've already proved to yourself that this person isn't responsive.
I had my Nagasawa re-painted by Circle A Cycles 2-1/2 years ago. They had some delays in getting decals, but the process took a bit over 2 months which I felt was fine. I didn't ask at the start for a delivery date but did ask that their schedule could accommodate the job.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by cadence90

I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote. See below for why.


Yes, and why is that?

It is certainly NOT because JB is an "artist", or is extremely talented, or is beholden to some kind of magic dust in his workshop, which may or may not appear on any given day/week/month....

It ironic, actually, because while most of these people are not JB, nor have his talent, what they truly lack is the simplest thing to learn and exercise, which is professional conduct, sole proprietor or not.

The desire/ability to correctly estimate the cost and duration of a project; the desire/ability to communicate promptly and clearly with a client; the desire/ability to deliver on said promises 9 times out of 10, because of professional pride and solid ethics if nothing else; the desire/ability to not be rude, to be honest, and to do one's absolute best as often as possible; etc.

All this other crap, non-communication, endless excuses, etc. is shameful, immature, "the dog ate my homework" complete bs 9 times out of 10.

There is no "magic" in proper conduct; it is simply part and parcel of being a professional. Non-pros (whether they purportedly paint bicycles, maintain yards, build buildings, sell via drones, or surgically repair hearts) can find something else to do, and stop wasting our time and our money, if they are unwilling to engage in the most basic professional behavior.

I am certainly not an apologist for any proprietor in the custom bike sub-industry.

You or I were not privvy to the OP's conversations with the un-named painter under scrutiny. Neither of us know what was discussed, understood, agreed upon or promised between the two parties.

I am fine with your disagreement as you are responding to your own set of issues that you are holding against un-named painter: That his conduct and professionalism does not meet the standards you demand. And furthermore that this type of attitude and behaviour causes a bad customer experience.

My post makes no judgement on the un-named painter in either his/her performance as a painter or the manner in which clients are dealt with. What I did post concerned my recommended approach on how to deal with proprietors in the small custom bike sub-industry. It is not my concern to review & critique how un-named painter runs his business or communicates with clients - I would only be able to judge that through direct interaction which neither of us have had.

However, I can make professional judgements based how any proprietor has performed in what I have commissioned them to do. Does a painter, or any service, deliver to the quality, time frame and price understood and agreed upon. That's all I need concern myself with. What anyone else might want in addition is up to them.

I have only used two bike painters in my lifetime: Peter Weigle and Jeff D. through the wonderful operation run by he and Tom K. at The Barn. I told them what I wanted, got a price and them I left them alone to do their job so that whenever they were done, they contacted me.

I am fully aware that not everyone performs to the standard of the gentlemen named here. I can only say the leeway given such men may not be deserved or earned by others who claim to offer the same kind of services.

Funny story: Peter is such a perfectionist! He called me over a span of days in debating what shade of Bianchi Celeste to go for - he was more fussy than I was. I told him I liked anything celeste and to do what he liked best and in hanging up the phone I thought - that was that. He called me back anyway in a few days to discuss the dozen shaded paint swatches he dabbed on the inside of the Bianchi catalog I sent him. Peter settled on a beautiful pearlescent celeste. The guy was driven and unstoppable. Guys like Peter you just gotta let them do it their way, it will always turn out great.

[buddybikes]

After all this you should ride the bike and get it dirty. Like dogs that what bike souls like...

[Llewellyn]

I think Fuzz is correct when he says we don't know all the details of the conversations between the OP and the painter, but cadence90 is absolutely right in that when you set up in business your clients are entitled to certain expectations about how you will run that business. It sounds like the painter has failed in those expectations. If I were the OP I'd get the frame back, pay for any work that has been done and get someone else to do the job. There are plenty of good painters out there.

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by Llewellyn

I think Fuzz is correct when he says we don't know all the details of the conversations between the OP and the painter, but cadence90 is absolutely right in that when you set up in business your clients are entitled to certain expectations about how you will run that business. It sounds like the painter has failed in those expectations. If I were the OP I'd get the frame back, pay for any work that has been done and get someone else to do the job. There are plenty of good painters out there.

I do think that my previous posts are generalizations regarding normal expectations of professional conduct among any/all parties in any business transaction, whereas some other posts are assumptions regarding private communications, which in fact may or may not be correct.

In any case, yes, I completely agree that if by now this painter cannot/will not deliver the completed work in very short order, then it would be time to retrieve the frame and move on.

[93legendti]

Originally Posted by Plum Hill

After a few phone conversations with a well-respected painter, I sent a frame off to be refinished. Only instructions from me were to match what's there. Ballpark price quoted; no money exchanged hands.
That was early June. Since then, nothing.
We've exchanged numerous emails. Some have offered "reasons" for not moving on the job.
Five months in I was assured the frame would be shipped in a week. That was over a month ago.
Last week I emailed again. Returned email was short and curt; it could be viewed as positive or a blow-off, depending on how one reads it. One week later, nothing. Nada. Zip.
I'm running out of patience and time.
The guy is 1,000 miles away. I can't exactly hop in the truck and drive over.

Any constructive suggestions?

If no money has been exchanged, there is no reason not to get your frame back now and move on to another painter.

The "relationship" has soured and you likely won't be happy even if he/she somehow makes up the delay to you.

Personally, next time I would be more specific as to time expectations.

[fuzzalow]

I am not belaboring a point with you, this is for fun...but we are not talkin' the same thing.

Just my opinion, your view here I disagree with because it lacks nuance.

Originally Posted by cadence90

I do think that my previous posts are generalizations regarding normal expectations of professional conduct among any/all parties in any business transaction, whereas some other posts are assumptions regarding private communications, which in fact may or may not be correct.

To me, there is a vast range of what the semantic of "professional" means so I find your overarching demand unwarranted. For example: investment banking or the law is a very different standard of "professional" conduct compared to what might be expected from a bike painter. Check your consumer entitlement.

In a nutshell, you go through life expecting people to perform and adhere to your amorphous, self-defined standard of perfection, you're gonna go through life disappointed. I prefer a more flexible approach where mutual respect grounds what I do with others and I'll extend myself to do whatever is necessary to achieve the desired result. I'll do more if needed to make up on teamwork, I can handle it.

In any case, yes, I completely agree that if by now this painter cannot/will not deliver the completed work in very short order, then it would be time to retrieve the frame and move on.

Short order? Try the cheap hotel buffet in Vegas. You want instant gratification, go to the mall.

Nice talkin' with you, see you at the next stop.

[zmudshark]

I dropped a frame off to a guy in June 2016, he said it won't be touched until he slows down in the late Fall/Winter. I told him I'd like it by June 2017. He said 'no problem'. Sounded very reasonable to me. I'll let you know for sure in June 2017.

His name sounds like Orville Redenbacher, sort of.

[Louis]

If you (the OP) can no longer trust the painter then I think you should request that he ship the frame back to you. If he can't / doesn't do that in a timely manner (say, by the second week in January) then I'd reach out to a forumite who lives nearby and ask if s/he can help you out by picking it up and shipping it to you.

[buldogge]

Yeah...I think I would have just had it painted locally.

What is the frame?

How "special" is the paint job (super-detailed/special finishes/etc.)?

What is the ballpark cost, for this "artist"?

-Mark in St. Louis

[Keith A]

Hey guys, let's stick to the topic at hand regarding the OP's request on how to handle this situation...and not squabble about someone's opinion on this topic.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by cadence90

I do think that my previous posts are generalizations regarding normal expectations of professional conduct among any/all parties in any business transaction, whereas some other posts are assumptions regarding private communications, which in fact may or may not be correct.

In any case, yes, I completely agree that if by now this painter cannot/will not deliver the completed work in very short order, then it would be time to retrieve the frame and move on.

I agree on all counts. Good customer service isn't rocket science. Bike shops in the republic go outta biz because they commit suicide, it certainly isn't for lack of business. Good customer service-say what, when and how much..if a problem, communicate. Don't be rude or condescending.

A rather well known frame builder, who is now out of business, once complained hugely when the bike shop, where I was working, asked why the frame was so delayed. Lack of proper tube for down tube, was the rude answer(in other words, how dare you even ask, leave the 'artists' alone!). Why not put pressure on the tube maker or look elsewhere, it was asked. To not anger the tube maker was the answer..but it was OK to anger us, the customer.

The ultimate customer canceled the order and bought a Ti Merckx..delivered in 4 days.

Good customer service, not arrogance(very similar to frame alignment thread)..is easy.