Cantilevers vs. Center Pulls?

[palincss]

Originally Posted by redir

Are not Cantilever and Center Pull the same thing?

No. This is a centerpull:


and this is a cantilever:

[redir]

Yeah I get it but I do love all the sexy bike pics so keep them coming

I remember having center pull (now that you mention it) on a few bikes in the old days and they were more or less worthless. The cantis that I still have on my 1983-ish touring bike today are still quite effective.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=palincss;2041290]No. This is a centerpull:


Another couple of center pulls...

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by redir

I remember having center pull (now that you mention it) on a few bikes in the old days and they were more or less worthless.

No offense, but if that was your experience you were definitely doing something wrong. Even the lowly Dia Compe/Weinmann and MAFAC Racer are excellent brakes when setup correctly.

[redir]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

No offense, but if that was your experience you were definitely doing something wrong. Even the lowly Dia Compe/Weinmann and MAFAC Racer are excellent brakes when setup correctly.

Ooops I'm dyslexic... I meant the canti's. On my old mountain bikes you may as well not have even had a rear brake because it didn't hardly do anything and the front kinda worked. It certainly could be that they were set up wrong too I don't know? But I always set them up by the book.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by palincss

No. This is a centerpull:


and this is a cantilever:

Technically, they are both cantilever brakes. A "cantilever brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#cantilever) uses a pair of separate brake arms, each mounted to either side of the frame. A "centerpull brake" is a caliper brake, where the caliper is complete assembly that is bolted to the frame as a unit.

The first photo is actually a "U brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_u-v.html#ubrake). The second photos is a "traditional" or "high profile" cantilever brake.


This is a centerpull brake:

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Another couple of center pulls...

Those aren't centerpulls - at least not in the traditional meaning of the word (see: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#center-pull).

The first brake is a "pantograph" or "4 bar linkage" brake (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_da-o.html#delta). The second is a "roller cam" brake (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ri-z.html#rollercam).

[bfd]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Technically, they are both cantilever brakes. A "cantilever brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#cantilever) uses a pair of separate brake arms, each mounted to either side of the frame. A "centerpull brake" is a caliper brake, where the caliper is complete assembly that is bolted to the frame as a unit.

The first photo is actually a "U brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_u-v.html#ubrake). The second photos is a "traditional" or "high profile" cantilever brake.


This is a centerpull brake:

I don't see the difference between the Mafac brake drawing you showed and the Compass "centerpull" brake which looks to be a modern version of the Mafac:





Even the brake pads have the same shape! Good Luck!

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by bfd

I don't see the difference between the Mafac brake drawing you showed and the Compass "centerpull" brake which looks to be a modern version of the Mafac:

Even the brake pads have the same shape! Good Luck!

Maybe you should do a Google search. You'll find that's exactly the point. The only improvement they made is pretty much the only improvement there was to make; these. I ordered a set for my MAFAC Competitions this week.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

Maybe you should do a Google search. You'll find that's exactly the point. The only improvement they made is pretty much the only improvement there was to make; these. I ordered a set for my MAFAC Competitions this week.

What? You didn't get the brass washers:



Or brass bushings:



$24 for the bushings and $18 for the washers....HaHaHa! Good Luck!

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by bfd

I don't see the difference between the Mafac brake drawing you showed and the Compass "centerpull" brake which looks to be a modern version of the Mafac:





Even the brake pads have the same shape! Good Luck!

True, there are strong similarities between Compass and the Mafac. The difference is that the Compass arms bolt directly to the frame (via studs brazed or welded to the frame). In contrast, the Mafac arms are bolted to a separate yoke. While this may seem minor, there are important differences in operation: The performance of the Compass brake becomes dependent on the frame, including the pivot locations and the flex of the frame at the studs, and the frame must be especially made to accept these brakes; On the Mafac, the performance is not dependent geometry/flex of the frame, and the brake may be used on a frame with a standard center bolt mount.. A bike that uses the Mafac brake can also use single pivot sidepull calipers, dual pivot sidepull calipers, roller cam brakes, and a variety of other brakes. A bike that uses the Compass brakes can really only work with these specific brakes, or other brakes with the same dimensions and design.

Here is a picture of the back of a center pull brake, showing the yoke and the center mounting bolt:



In addition to being installed mounted differently, there differences in brake adjustment as well. Like other cantilever brakes, the Compass brakes are centered by adjusting the individual spring tensions on either arm. In contrast, centerpull brakes are centered like other caliper brakes, by rotating the entire caliper assembly on the center bolt.

These difference is why brakes like the Compass brakes have been given an entirely different naming designation - they are called "U brakes".

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

In addition to being installed mounted differently....

To be fair, MAFACs have always been able to be mounted directly and were done so by Herse and Singer among others for decades. This is a function of frame design much more than caliper design. Yes, it is certainly advantageous but does not fundamentally change the way the caliper operates.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

To be fair, MAFACs have always been able to be mounted directly and were done so by Herse and Singer among others for decades. This is a function of frame design much more than caliper design. Yes, it is certainly advantageous but does not fundamentally change the way the caliper operates.

As I said, they are similar, but not identical, and so they should be referred to by a different name. Which why the rest of the bicycle industry calls them "U brakes". Dia-Comple calls them U brakes:




Tektro calls them U brakes:



Odyssey calls them U brakes:





Other manufacturers such as Evoke, Black Ops, Mission, etc. all call them U brakes. Why do you insist on mis-identifying them?

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Why do you insist on mis-identifying them?

Why do you insist on being deliberately obtuse and pedantic? MAFAC centerpulls can be mounted direct or on a yoke; that's always been the case. You can call the direct mount version a U-brake if you want and you wouldn't be wrong. But neither Dia-Compe*, Paul nor Compass refers to a direct mounted centerpull as a U-brake.

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Which why the rest of the bicycle industry calls them "U brakes".

Except so many manufacturers do not as referenced above.

My point wasn't even that. It was that the differences you point out between MAFAC and the Compass brake don't apply when the MAFAC is mounted direct, which has always been an option. It is not a fundamental difference in function.

*the brake you posted a photo of that was used on BMX and some MTBs is what they referred to as a U-brake. Their 610s that were direct mounted to some Centurion and Lotus frames were never to my knowledge referred to as U-brakes. But I don't think it matters to anyone within this thread but you.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

True, there are strong similarities between Compass and the Mafac. The difference is that the Compass arms bolt directly to the frame (via studs brazed or welded to the frame). In contrast, the Mafac arms are bolted to a separate yoke. While this may seem minor, there are important differences in operation: The performance of the Compass brake becomes dependent on the frame, including the pivot locations and the flex of the frame at the studs, and the frame must be especially made to accept these brakes; On the Mafac, the performance is not dependent geometry/flex of the frame, and the brake may be used on a frame with a standard center bolt mount.. A bike that uses the Mafac brake can also use single pivot sidepull calipers, dual pivot sidepull calipers, roller cam brakes, and a variety of other brakes. A bike that uses the Compass brakes can really only work with these specific brakes, or other brakes with the same dimensions and design.

Here is a picture of the back of a center pull brake, showing the yoke and the center mounting bolt:



In addition to being installed mounted differently, there differences in brake adjustment as well. Like other cantilever brakes, the Compass brakes are centered by adjusting the individual spring tensions on either arm. In contrast, centerpull brakes are centered like other caliper brakes, by rotating the entire caliper assembly on the center bolt.

These difference is why brakes like the Compass brakes have been given an entirely different naming designation - they are called "U brakes".

Thanks! Interestingly, Dia-Compe calls its 610 brake a "centerpull" and it doesn't appear to attached to the frame. Here's the Velo Orange 610:



Here's the original from 1976:



Another version:



Paul's centerpull bakes gives you an option for attachment - braze on, center mount recessed and center mount non-recessed:



Centerpull, U-brake, they all stop well. It's good to have options.

Personally, I'm having a new frame being build and I've decided to go with Paul mini-vs brakes. Gives me lots of room for fattish tires (up to 35mm without fenders), which I know isn't fat compared to many of you all who use 50mm+ tires, but it works for me.

Good Luck!