Flipping stuff - firearms division

[biker72]

Originally Posted by jmoore

You can never go wrong with a Browning A5, esp in Sweet 16.

It is a Weatherby SA08 full synthetic they introduced a few years back. $400 new. I bought one of the very first ones in Dallas. It is essentially a copy of a Beretta 391 (which I have in 12ga). Handles great and very light. They are now nearly $600 new, so a great investment. He thinks its super cool

Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk

I've been out of the firearms scene for a number of years but recently got interested again. Any firearm that had Weatherby stamped on it was always high quality. Looks like your SA08 is no exception.

[professerr]

Originally Posted by Onno

There are more than just 2 types, vis hunters and non-hunters. There are also former hunters. I grew up in northern Canada, and did a fair bit of hunting and shooting as a kid, with my father and brother. The first few kills were at first shocking, and then thrilling. Leopold writes about always remembering the first bird you kill on the fly. I too still have vivid memories of that, 40 years later. But as I got older, I couldn't reconcile the thrill of killing with my sense of respect and love for the lives of the animals. I didn't need to kill and eat them, and primary reason for doing it was that it was fun (which it was). And so I stopped. I find my memories of hunting both exciting and troubling, so I'm glad I had the experience. But I can't really accept that hunting for fun or sport is unproblematic, even if you eat what you kill, and don't hang the heads.

I have to admit I was surprised at the number of posters and mods here who are into guns and hunting. In my family, those in the medical fields (mostly) long ago cleaved off, when it comes to gun ownership, from the gun enthusiasts.

I’ve been hunting once. It was not fun for me at all. It felt wrong at a visceral level, and when I learn that someone enjoys hunting I accept that they are different from me. I will not teach or encourage a child to kill something.

There are many abandoned practices in human history that were defended by adherents on grounds of tradition and culture. I think the momentum of history is against this one too.

[Gsinill]

Originally Posted by professerr

There are many abandoned practices in human history that were defended by adherents on grounds of tradition and culture. I think the momentum of history is against this one too.

Well said...

[Louis]

Originally Posted by professerr

It felt wrong at a visceral level, and when I learn that someone enjoys hunting I accept that they are different from me. I will not teach or encourage a child to kill something.

There are many abandoned practices in human history that were defended by adherents on grounds of tradition and culture. I think the momentum of history is against this one too.

+1

I can't get over the killing part.

All you have to do is watch and listen to a pig being bled to death, and as the cries get weaker and weaker you have to realize that something bad is occurring. And even if it's killed in a fraction of a second instead of many long, long minutes, that doesn't make it a whole lot better. It's still killing. Doing it for sport is IMO even worse.

Because they can't communicate directly to us via speech we've convinced ourselves that it's somehow OK to raise and kill animals for our benefit, but long ago I concluded that the less of that that's done in my name the better. Every time I smell ahead of me on the highway a cattle or pig transport truck then pass it, I feel terrible and avert my eyes. My only consolation is that it isn't being done for me, and maybe over the years the lack of my demand for those products has spared a handful of creatures that horrible fate.

[Dead Man]

Originally Posted by professerr

I think the momentum of history is against this one too.

This isn't like saying "gay" in reference to things that suck, or genocide, or using PCBs. On the contrary: for as long as we eat meat, hunting will always be the ethically superior method of obtaining it.

Or do you think meat purchased in the supermarket has less harmful impact on the world?

[Louis]

Originally Posted by The B

Or do you think meat purchased in the supermarket has less harmful impact on the world?

So does that somehow make it all OK, because what's behind Door #2 is even worse?

[Dead Man]

Originally Posted by Louis

So does that somehow make it all OK, because what's behind Door #2 is even worse?

I don't personally possess the conviction that all death is necessarily ethically wrong... so I'm thinking you and I can't line up on this one. By simply being alive, eating or not, our existence causes death. I don't draw distinctions of value from type of life to another, with the exception of human life. Even if we don't believe there be a creator who created us to be distinct from all other forms of life, we still possess at least one thing unique from all known forms of life: self profession of rights, specifically the right to live.

My life requires death. The only alternative to causing death is to cause my own death. Some fanatics think that's valid.

Others have a perspective that makes distinctions between the value of different types of life- you apparently have your own code. Killing for the purpose of consuming the flesh of the dead is apparently not OK with you. Where DO you draw the line?

[Louis]

Originally Posted by The B

Where DO you draw the line?

I've seen plenty of both done, and I don't have a problem distinguishing between agricultural cultivation and animals. Sentience does make a difference.

Edit: But yes, I do feel bad even when plants die needlessly. I dislike seeing food wasted, and in the US there's tons of that happening every day.

[christian]

Originally Posted by professerr

There are many abandoned practices in human history that were defended by adherents on grounds of tradition and culture. I think the momentum of history is against this one too.

I don't hunt, but I don't think there is any question that, given the larger impact man has had on the environment, well-managed hunting is pretty easily defensible as ethical.

First, with the lack of natural predation, some species have multiplied to levels where they are pests - witness deer in southern New York, moose in Sweden, wild boars just about every where. It seems obvious that hunting moose is preferable to striking them with cars (the inevtiable other outcome). It seems equally obvious that hunting boar is preferable to significant loss of native species of plants and animals.

Additionally, the practice of hunting and eating the meat is surely preferable to most forms of modern agriculture. In hunting, the animal lives in its natural habitat and expresses its species essence until the end of its life, and the kill is reasonably quick and humane. In modern farming, the animal lives the majority of its life in a severely constricted environment, often eating things which are nothing like its natural food, and then is killed reasonably quickly and humanely. I know which, if given the choice, I'd pick.

In other words, I think it's reasonable to oppose hunting. But to do so with any ethical consistency requires, at minimum, strict vegetarianism.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by christian

In hunting, the animal lives in its natural habitat and expresses its species essence until the end of its life, and the kill is reasonably quick and humane.

True, and to some extent I agree, but it isn't a reasonable alternative. There just isn't enough space available to feed the world at an affordable cost. We can't all simply eat venison.

[Dale Alan]

Originally Posted by christian

I don't hunt, but I don't think there is any question that, given the larger impact man has had on the environment, well-managed hunting is pretty easily defensible as ethical.

First, with the lack of natural predation, some species have multiplied to levels where they are pests - witness deer in southern New York, moose in Sweden, wild boars just about every where. It seems obvious that hunting moose is preferable to striking them with cars (the inevtiable other outcome). It seems equally obvious that hunting boar is preferable to significant loss of native species of plants and animals.

Additionally, the practice of hunting and eating the meat is surely preferable to most forms of modern agriculture. In hunting, the animal lives in its natural habitat and expresses its species essence until the end of its life, and the kill is reasonably quick and humane. In modern farming, the animal lives the majority of its life in a severely constricted environment, often eating things which are nothing like its natural food, and then is killed reasonably quickly and humanely. I know which, if given the choice, I'd pick.

In other words, I think it's reasonable to oppose hunting. But to do so with any ethical consistency requires, at minimum, strict vegetarianism.

Well said,you nailed it IMO.

[unterhausen]

I saw this thread and thought it was going on because of the gun aspect. Personally, I see nothing wrong with hunting. In fact the hunters around here would probably be in favor of paving over the woods if they couldn't hunt, so I want them on my side on that particular matter. The problem I have is with ammosexuals that fetishize guns in and of themselves. I've had a gun pointed at my head twice, I didn't like it and it bothers me a lot that the negligent discharge rate is obnoxiously high around here.

[Louis]

This is also a cultural thing. Currently in France there's a huge hullabaloo about the proposed new "1000 cow farm." Protests, blocking of the roads, etc etc.

Le Monde story

In the US folks have few problems with industrial-scale raising of animals, despite the horror-stories happening on a daily basis.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by unterhausen

I saw this thread and thought it was going on because of the gun aspect.

As usual, we've drifted.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by Louis

+1

I can't get over the killing part.

All you have to do is watch and listen to a pig being bled to death, and as the cries get weaker and weaker you have to realize that something bad is occurring.

What about fishing?