Frame alignemnt question

[yashcha]

It totally sucks and I hate to give up on this, but I do agree that this is a lost cause. Not one person has told me "dude just ride it, it's fine", and I have a lot of friends/acqauintances who would say that. But no one has which probably means this thing is going to break if I ride it.

I have to admit I got super depressed when I saw all the nahbs pictures with frames that were made as it should be. Deleted my instgram account because the situation with the Jaegher was so frustrating.

Originally Posted by David Kirk

At the risk of being a serious bummer I feel compelled to share my opinion here.....

My professional advise would be to cut your losses and put this frame on a hook and call it a day. It sucks to say that but based on what you have shared here I think it's the only real option IMO.

A lugged frame gets its strength and safety from the simple fact that the entire space inside the lugs is full of brass or silver. To work as it should it needs to be 100% full of filler right down into the deepest section of the lug where the two tubes contact each other. Properly done a lugged joint is bullet proof.

The issue is that one can never tell from the outside if the lugs are 100% full of filler. A builder can merely make sure that the exposed edges of the lugs are full so that it all looks good and then hope for the best. If this is done the frame is sure to fail over time....and maybe not much time at that. Since there is much evidence that real attention to detail was not given to this piece of work, and since there are obvious gaps in the braze, I worry that the lugs are not full and therefore not safe for long term use.

One can fix this if need be as anything can be fixed given enough time and money. One could strip the paint from all the joints and then "reflow" all the joints which is really just rebrazing them to be sure that any voids are eliminated. It's by no means optimal as the joints will all go through another heat cycle and who knows how much heat the joints have already seen.

So the paint should be stripped, the joints should be chemically cleaned, fluxed, brazed, soaked clean and then refinished. The reaming and facing will need to be redone/checked and the alignment will then need to be checked and tweaked as need be. Then it will need to be repainted. This will take many hours of labor and will cost a real sum of money. I can't imagine you'd find a pro that would do this work for anything less than $1200 for the frame and fork....if you can find someone who is willing to take on the liability.

You are going to spend real time, money and emotional energy to get to the end of this and in the end you might have a bike that is safe to use. But will you want to use it? I think most wouldn't enjoy it at this point. All the time and money spent to make this usable could be saved and put toward having a reputable pro build you something you can climb onto for years to come that is free from stories and compromise. I can't see why you would throw good money after bad on this one.

I apologize for meddling. You drew the short straw on this one and that really sucks. There are so many good builders out there that will give you a well built and safe bike...you just got unlucky and didn't work with one of those builders. It sucks and I feel for you.

dave

[weisan]

My friend...
从我们的经验中学习，不再重复...
忘记过去，展望未来，向前迈进

[Cicli]

Originally Posted by weisan

My friend...
从我们的经验中学习，不再重复...
忘记过去，展望未来，向前迈进

If I may add.

这吸

[moobikes]

Very sorry about your situation. These guys are frame-effers, not effbuilders. It's unbelievable they would let a frame like this one leave their shop, and I think it's possible they were messing with you.

If there is anyway to dispute the charge with your credit card company re. your payments to them, I would try that. With his permission, the statement by David Kirk could be used to back up your claim that you were sold a piece of garbage.

Pictures of all the shoddy work, put them up on social media, help them show off their awesome crap. In this day and age with great NAHBS work all over the place, this will surely get their attention. "Jaegher, masters of the torch!"

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by yashcha

Fork was also custom made by Jaegher. If it can't be fixed I will throw a Enve 2.0 on there. Thabks to Mike the frame is as straight as it can be. Unfortunately there are some issues with many of the lug tube joint area.

In some ways you're lucky they didn't fill those voids with filler before they painted the frame. Very unfortunate saga every way you look at it.

[yashcha]

thank you guys for your comments. I am glad to know that others think their work is unacceptable as some of the replies I got from jaegher tried to convince me that I am just being picky and that all handmade products have these faults and that is what makes them special.

I am shelving the Jaegher project for a while as it has been a pain in the ass and I would like to move on.

On a happy note, my perfectly built Zanconato alu bike arrived unscratched all the way to Beijing so that is something to be happy about.

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by yashcha

thank you guys for your comments. I am glad to know that others think their work is unacceptable as some of the replies I got from jaegher tried to convince me that I am just being picky and that all handmade products have these faults and that is what makes them special.

I am shelving the Jaegher project for a while as it has been a pain in the ass and I would like to move on.

On a happy note, my perfectly built Zanconato alu bike arrived unscratched all the way to Beijing so that is something to be happy about.

Do you have any more pics of the red Zank you could post? That red looks hot!

[54ny77]

wow this thread is quite the journey/saga.

bummer to hear of your experience.

some of those pics you posted, esp. the one with the upside down shot of the seat cluster and the big void, was unbelievable.

not that i'd ever be buying one, but if anyone ever asks me about jaegher frames, i'll pass them along to this thread where they can see shoddy work and lousy customer service, then make their own judgement.

for what it's worth, i once had a parlee z4 that was just a tad off on the rear dropout alignment, similar to yours. definite manufacturing defect. was a couple or few mm off. drove me nuts once i discovered it. wanna know good customer service? they said keep the frame and ride it for another couple of weeks, and meanwhile they sent me a new frame. gratis. plus return shipping for the other frame AND covered the bill for the disassembly and rebuild at a local parlee dealer.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

Do you have any more pics of the red Zank you could post? That red looks hot!

I did a full rebuild from frame up, weighed everything, and documented it all so I will post a write up in the gallery this week. But yeah, that bike is the best I have ever owned.

[yashcha]

I used to live a block from parlee while living in beverly. Really great guys.

Good to hear experiences of companies that make mistakes, but are able to rectify them.

Originally Posted by 54ny77

wow this thread is quite the journey/saga.

bummer to hear of your experience.

some of those pics you posted, esp. the one with the upside down shot of the seat cluster and the big void, was unbelievable.

not that i'd ever be buying one, but if anyone ever asks me about jaegher frames, i'll pass them along to this thread where they can see shoddy work and lousy customer service, then make their own judgement.

for what it's worth, i once had a parlee z4 that was just a tad off on the rear dropout alignment, similar to yours. definite manufacturing defect. was a couple or few mm off. drove me nuts once i discovered it. wanna know good customer service? they said keep the frame and ride it for another couple of weeks, and meanwhile they sent me a new frame. gratis. plus return shipping for the other frame AND covered the bill for the disassembly and rebuild at a local parlee dealer.

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by yashcha

I did a full rebuild from frame up, weighed everything, and documented it all so I will post a write up in the gallery this week. But yeah, that bike is the best I have ever owned.

I found pics of the frame in Zank's Flickr feed but would love to see your pics of it built up. I am looking forward to your post.

I have a third Zank aluminum coming up in Mike's queue very soon and while I have always gone with black frames, every once in a while a color pops up and makes me think, and yours has certainly done that.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

I found pics of the frame in Zank's Flickr feed but would love to see your pics of it built up. I am looking forward to your post.

I have a third Zank aluminum coming up in Mike's queue very soon and while I have always gone with black frames, every once in a while a color pops up and makes me think, and yours has certainly done that.

Did you pick out your frame color yet? The matte black is nice, I have seen it in person, but some of the House of Kolor paints, and even the basic powder coat can come out really nice. On the powder coat, the logos are decals over the clear coat.

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by yashcha

Did you pick out your frame color yet? The matte black is nice, I have seen it in person, but some of the House of Kolor paints, and even the basic powder coat can come out really nice. On the powder coat, the logos are decals over the clear coat.

I haven't yet. I am still leaning slightly toward my standard black with white decals. You can see one of my earlier Zanks under 'Geoff S' in Mike's flickr stream.

I fall in love with a new color just about everyday but the love affair only seems to last a few days. I am thinking I shouldn't waste too much headspace on this and stick with black. I can always mix things up with different colored bar tape!

[nicrump]

Originally Posted by weisan

Something just popped in my head...with the issues or concerns mentioned so far about building a frame using steel as the material, would this be one area that maybe carbon has a leg up because of its totally different fabrication process?

It has its own challenges. 1st being there is no setting of a cured carbon part. not practically speaking anyway.