Do gravel race participants care about "lining up with the pros"?

[shoota]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

If I were in one of the massive gravel races where pros show, I would not want to line up with them because it would just be frustrating for them and stressful for me.
I dont want to be the reason why a bunch of people are grumpy from riding too slowly at the start.

Don't worry, you'd never be allowed to start at the front lol.

I've been to a race where they had staggered start times, I can't remember where it was though. I don't recall it being controversial. But I agree with the others, the mass start and mixing it up with the pros is a big draw for a lot of gravel peeps.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by tootall

I think they do. Events seem to blow up when they get big names showing up, then all the amateurs flock to them. How did Gravel Locos get so big? It seemed to me like they had a lot of star power talking about it (Laurens Ten Dam, Ted King, etc.) which put them on the map.

This is true for virtually all Pro/Am events, whether it is cycling, running, golf, or other sport. Part of the reason that the entry fees for Pro/Am events is larger than for grass roots events is due to having to pay entry fees to top Pro athletes.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I was under the impression that gravel races were run point-to-point or on one big loop (rather than multiple laps of a smaller loop). If so, then why not have an interval start? Maybe start the Elite/Pro women 15 or 20 minutes after the Elite/Pro men, and then the amateurs in one or two groups at another interval after that?

The specific problem for the women is that non-elite amateur men are faster than many of them, and so if you give The women 20 minutes on a 10-hour race, that's really not enough. On the other hand, if you give them an hour on a 10-hour race, that pushes back the start of the amateur who might be taking 16 hours to do that race, which really stresses the organization. And they also need enough time between them and the elite men, because if you give the elite men a 15-minute Head start, that's usually fine, but if a few riders have crashes or flat tires early in the race, they can get caught by the women and then the women can hang on their wheels. So then you need even more time between the elite man and the elite women, and even more time between the elite elite women and the amateurs, and the end result is that the entire event starts getting unpleasantly long.

[Spdntrxi]

I think the pro/elite-women start is hard part. Obviously there will be fit men ams that will blow the doors off them or atleast provide too much draft to certain women as an assist. Which is also not good for the sport. Certainly starting a different day is not good either.

I have not done BWR Ca in a few years, but I know one year the pro (waffle ) going on Sat and ams doing wafer going on Sun.. was a total non-starter. I dont know if that how it actually went down, but that is what was presented to me and I never bothered to sign up again

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by tootall

I think they do. Events seem to blow up when they get big names showing up, then all the amateurs flock to them. How did Gravel Locos get so big? It seemed to me like they had a lot of star power talking about it (Laurens Ten Dam, Ted King, etc.) which put them on the map.

I did Rad Dirt Fest in 2022, it was a Lifetime event but wasn't yet in the Grand Prix. There were around 500 people there, about the same as the year before. In 2023 they added it to the Grand Prix and numbers jumped by 30+%, much more than the Grand Prix racers alone.

The question is does this increase this require a mass start of everyone at the same time?

It doesn't seem like it, Gravel Locos follows the exact same trend as Unbound charted above - started as one distance and grew exponentially once more distances were added. The first edition has a total ridership for the 1 course on offer - the Pro course - of 148 riders, in 2023 there were 3 courses on offer (comp timed) and the Pro course had 185 riders while the other two had 500 riders total. A huge increase, arguable whether "lining up with the pros" is at play since all distances start at the same time but are staged separately.

The Rad Dirt Fest has the same trend, AFAICT it's been run 3 years. Prior to 2023 the Pro course was 165 miles and represented ~15% of the total registrations. In 2023 the Pro course was shortened to 110 miles, it was added to the LTGP and attendance of the pro course increased to ~35% of the total.

The Rad has different start times for different distances - so the apparent growth present is still being driven by something other than lining up with the pros.

Bar napkin meta-analysis seems to indicate separate fields might blunt the growth of ridership in the pro/elite fields (not distance just the actual field) by a couple or few dozens in the pro/elite field but have no effect or increase the growth in all other categories.

This seems to be an interesting (and surprisingly common) type of case where the opinion is "yes" but the data says "no".

[trener1]

Originally Posted by 45K10

Way before gravel events became a thing, I raced as a cat 2 in Florida. I hated it when some of the US domestic Pros would come down to the races in February / March and kick everyone's ass. I was only paying $20 to race. Why on earth would someone paying $200 to do some gravel race care about what the Pros are doing.

I haven't read through this whole thread, but just to your point.
I am in NYC, and back in the day when the Navigaters team was based in NJ, sometimes they would show up to the races in Prospect Park, and for me it was an absolute blast having the race lined out single file for 40 miles and averaging like 27-28mph, of course I didn't place when they showed up but it was fun going so fast and "racing" the full race.

[spoonrobot]

There are also alternatives - rules based order where male riders (in totality or merely by class/field) are prohibited from riding with female riders. Everyone starts together but no drafting, no male domestiques, and no participation at all with other females as created and noted by the organizer.

It seems LTGP has the resources to carry this out without issue but I suspect it does not generate the press and clicks that discussion of other options does. After a few iterations I suspect this will be the normal rule structure in a few years.

[KJMUNC]

Originally Posted by zs3889

I just found out from someone trying to sell/transfer their entry to the Belgian Waffle Ride - a single entry sells for $280...

Yep, as someone who is lining up Sunday for BWR CA, it is an expensive way to spend the day. That said, I plan to get my share of swag/waffles/beer at the finish and enjoy the atmosphere. I can ride the course any day of the week (and often do) but it's way more fun to do it with a ton of other people....and I'm willing to pay for that.

As for pros lining up....it's cool to have them racing there, but for schmoes like me, we're never going to see them after the call-up and it doesn't affect my ride, so I don't see why it's an issue. As part of the money grab, it's an effort to legitimize the race and draw more people. None of my non-cycling friends would ever come to an event of amateurs, but when you say "hey, some guys who rode the TdF are going to be there" it create an interest you can't get otherwise.

As for the women having separate events....I think that's been tried (basically women's competitive cycling up until a few years ago) and didn't work particularly well. But hey, try again and see what happens. Race organizers have combined multi-day events like BWR into a single day to try and ease conflicts with local stakeholders and residents, so I don't see them going back to multi-day, but if there's a market for a multi-day event, go for it. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't work. Hard to have your cake and eat it too in a relatively fringe sport like gravel.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by shoota

Don't worry, you'd never be allowed to start at the front lol.

I've been to a race where they had staggered start times, I can't remember where it was though. I don't recall it being controversial. But I agree with the others, the mass start and mixing it up with the pros is a big draw for a lot of gravel peeps.

Ha, I actually found myself near the front of a local gravel race a few years ago- CIRREM. I was fiddling with stuff on my bike for a few minutes, looked up, and saw everyone not already lined up had pretty much positioned themselves behind me. I was like 'nope, not today' and moved back 10 more rows.


Yeah, having some known people race in what you are racing in is pretty cool, for sure.

[spoonrobot]

I think the fundamental issue here is that the more popular Gravel social commentators were at a loss to explain the growth of Gravel events - having little participation in other cycling disciplines - so they looked to the most popular types of cycling (UCI Professional) and applied that framework to Gravel.

People see the pros and want to do what the pros do, so the closer they can get to the pros the more they want to do it.

Sort of but not really.

[benb]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

There are also alternatives - rules based order where male riders (in totality or merely by class/field) are prohibited from riding with female riders. Everyone starts together but no drafting, no male domestiques, and no participation at all with other females as created and noted by the organizer.

It seems LTGP has the resources to carry this out without issue but I suspect it does not generate the press and clicks that discussion of other options does. After a few iterations I suspect this will be the normal rule structure in a few years.

Don't you think the logistics of this get very hard? Does LTGP already have officials in cars/motorcycles watching stuff?

You're almost at a TDF level of problem (maybe worse?) in terms of stopping cheating if you set those kind of rules on such a long race in such isolated areas.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

The specific problem for the women is that non-elite amateur men are faster than many of them, and so if you give The women 20 minutes on a 10-hour race, that's really not enough. On the other hand, if you give them an hour on a 10-hour race, that pushes back the start of the amateur who might be taking 16 hours to do that race, which really stresses the organization. And they also need enough time between them and the elite men, because if you give the elite men a 15-minute Head start, that's usually fine, but if a few riders have crashes or flat tires early in the race, they can get caught by the women and then the women can hang on their wheels. So then you need even more time between the elite man and the elite women, and even more time between the elite elite women and the amateurs, and the end result is that the entire event starts getting unpleasantly long.

This type of thing has already been an issue in road racing, and they already have rules to address it. Many road races have multiple fields on the course at the same time, the fields separated by staggered starts. And as you say, sometimes racers from different fields will happen across each other on the course. In which case the rules explicitly say that riders from different fields cannot work together, and face disqualification if caught. Each field will have race numbers with either a different color or a different range of numbers so that riders can distinguish if they are in the same or different fields. Distinguishing between men and women racers should be even easier. And yes, I've seen racers disqualified by mixing in with riders from other fields.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by benb

Don't you think the logistics of this get very hard? Does LTGP already have officials in cars/motorcycles watching stuff?

You're almost at a TDF level of problem (maybe worse?) in terms of stopping cheating if you set those kind of rules on such a long race in such isolated areas.

They spent a lot of money flying around races in a helicopter last year for their Youtube series.

It only takes a handful of motorbikes or secret observers to really police the issue.

Even better, racers are able to self-police, and self-monitor to an extent. Not saying they should have to, but this rules-based idea may be workable after some iterations better than other options depending on the event, etc.

Many races include lead vehicles for the lead pack. Of course lots of stuff can happen outside the lead pack that influences the race but this isn't a ready made one-and-done solution to the issue. Things need to be tried and tested before best idea(s) become clear.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This type of thing has already been an issue in road racing, and they already have rules to address it. Many road races have multiple fields on the course at the same time, the fields separated by staggered starts. And as you say, sometimes racers from different fields will happen across each other on the course. In which case the rules explicitly say that riders from different fields cannot work together, and face disqualification if caught. Each field will have race numbers with either a different color or a different range of numbers so that riders can distinguish if they are in the same or different fields. Distinguishing between men and women racers should be even easier. And yes, I've seen racers disqualified by mixing in with riders from other fields.

Right, but road races tend to have a single peloton, maybe a breakaway, race officials on the course with lead and follow cars, etc. In gravel, riders are all spread out, and roads are often unpassable by cars, or so narrow that "not drafting" isn't feasible. By my count, the top 50 men at Unbound last year were in 26 different groups. And the top 10 women were scatted in there too.

It's fine to make rules, but they may be difficult to enforce, and things like neutralizing a slower field in a road race to let the faster field pass isn't really possible.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Right, but road races tend to have a single peloton, maybe a breakaway, race officials on the course with lead and follow cars, etc. In gravel, riders are all spread out, and roads are often unpassable by cars, or so narrow that "not drafting" isn't feasible.

You just described just about every (road) time trial I've ever done. Which is why there are time trial rules about how close you ride behind another rider, and how long you are allowed to make a pass. And like you say, these rules can be difficult to enforce, but that's no reason not to have rules.