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  #226  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:07 PM
echappist echappist is offline
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Originally Posted by cadence90 View Post
My old college art history professor (an admitted elitist snob, but very good as a teacher) used to say, "People who look stupid are stupid, very often." in discussing Brueghel and the rise of realism in Flemish painting.

I always found that remark vulgar, but maybe the old prof was on to something, as this certainly could be a Brueghel face....
Is Flemish art of certain period looked down upon? Never heard of Brueghel, and the only Flemish artist I know of is, well, assist specialist Kevin DeBruyne . Jest aside, there's one Flemish impressionistic painter whose name I can't think of. A lot of his subjects were that of the River Schelde (could be the Meuse as well). Almost a bit boring to look at as it appears to depict a body of still water. Google is suggesting Rysselberghe when I search for paintings of the Schelde. Perhaps you might have a better suggestion?

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Is that look more or less inquisitive than that of a rotund waiter?

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  #227  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:22 AM
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cadence90 cadence90 is offline
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Is Flemish art of certain period looked down upon? Never heard of Brueghel, and the only Flemish artist I know of is, well, assist specialist Kevin DeBruyne .
My gawd, no!!!

Some of the greatest painters in historys, among them Jan van Eyck; the Brueghels (Elder and Younger); A van Dyck, PP Rubens; etc.

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Jest aside, there's one Flemish impressionistic painter whose name I can't think of. A lot of his subjects were that of the River Schelde (could be the Meuse as well). Almost a bit boring to look at as it appears to depict a body of still water. Google is suggesting Rysselberghe when I search for paintings of the Schelde. Perhaps you might have a better suggestion?
So many of those painters painted river scenes...do you recognize anyone?
flemish painting river meuse

flemish painting river scheldt


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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
Is that look more or less inquisitive than that of a rotund waiter?
That's a bad look, but BA has about 1000% more of those than Rafa does, imho.

Plus, in Rafa's case it is, as you correctly stated, the look of "a rotund waiter".
In BA's case it is always and purely the look of "a dumb waiter".

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  #228  
Old 10-11-2017, 08:56 AM
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MattTuck MattTuck is offline
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Don't follow soccer that closely. Can someone explain why we can't beat the team of a small caribbean island nation, with a population of 1.3 million or so.

I mean, I understand at some point it is about culture and development from a young age, but don't we have pretty good youth, collegiate and professional leagues that should atleast be able to turn out 11 solid players?

Clearly, we have a pretty strong women's team.

Or is this (as alluded to) an organizational issue within US men's soccer?
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  #229  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MattTuck View Post
Don't follow soccer that closely. Can someone explain why we can't beat the team of a small caribbean island nation, with a population of 1.3 million or so.

I mean, I understand at some point it is about culture and development from a young age, but don't we have pretty good youth, collegiate and professional leagues that should atleast be able to turn out 11 solid players?

Clearly, we have a pretty strong women's team.

Or is this (as alluded to) an organizational issue within US men's soccer?
Failure at every level.
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  #230  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:24 AM
Mzilliox Mzilliox is offline
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Here is the American problem in regards to football. Its been this way since i was training in Olympic development back in 95-96. we value athletic ability over creativity and actual talent for football. people draft football and basketball players based on how big they may get and can they be taught to do something as simple as put a ball into a hoop or catch a spherical object. both things are very easy to do, and made easier when you are a beast of a man.

But football is much different than this. Messi is the finest ever at 5'7" and would never have made it in this country. we fundamentally do not understand the game at its essence. they call it the beautiful game for a reason. Its poetry, and we are not a nation of poets.
the guys we have at the top are clueless. Hiring Arena was the least imaginative thing one could have done. Hire a former coach who was not that great back then either, and who has done nothing since to show hes grown? as soon as they hired him i told my dad we would not qualify. i was serious, and now im right.

I take this semi personally. at this age looking back i know i was not quite good enough to play, but i did play with guys who were better than Landon Donovan (i played against him my whole childhood and he never scored against me). they never had a chance, parents had no money, too small, too creative, too confusing for American coaches who are clueless.
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  #231  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:18 AM
echappist echappist is offline
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Originally Posted by MattTuck View Post
Don't follow soccer that closely. Can someone explain why we can't beat the team of a small caribbean island nation, with a population of 1.3 million or so.
Iceland doesn't even have 0.5 million, and it can make the likes of England (and United States) cry.
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I mean, I understand at some point it is about culture and development from a young age, but don't we have pretty good youth, collegiate and professional leagues that should atleast be able to turn out 11 solid players?
Collegiate soccer is subpar, as is MLS. Watching the MLS cup last year was by far the worst soccer match I've seen in a long time. Teams couldn't even string together 10 passes.

Youth development is its own brand of Fubar. Mzilliox has pointed to numerous issues afflicting it. But mainly, you have no one who can recognize talent, an overemphasis on winning (as opposed to developing a foundation), and exorbitant cost that turns away many at the door. Winning at the youth stage is wholly predicated upon speed and athleticism, and not on skills and awareness.

The very best soccer players are technical and fast, but half a rung below you have people who are not crazy fast but are tactically aware and technically adept. The latter two trumps raw physical talents.

An apt analogy of U.S. Soccer would be the supremely strong triathlete who transitions to mass start bike racing. The raw talent is there, and the dude may get far on talent alone, but at a certain level (cat 2 and above), the lack of tactical awareness and requisite skills will hamper further progress.

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Clearly, we have a pretty strong women's team.
This is solely because of Title IX. The advantage of Title IX is more than able to overcome the subpar coaching, development, scouting, etc. that's also prevalent for women's football. When top foreign female players clamor to show up playing at the collegiate or pro levels in the U.S., you know you have a system that is perhaps the best in the world (albeit seriously flawed in other ways)
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  #232  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:59 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
Iceland doesn't even have 0.5 million, and it can make the likes of England (and United States) cry.

Collegiate soccer is subpar, as is MLS. Watching the MLS cup last year was by far the worst soccer match I've seen in a long time. Teams couldn't even string together 10 passes.

Youth development is its own brand of Fubar. Mzilliox has pointed to numerous issues afflicting it. But mainly, you have no one who can recognize talent, an overemphasis on winning (as opposed to developing a foundation), and exorbitant cost that turns away many at the door. Winning at the youth stage is wholly predicated upon speed and athleticism, and not on skills and awareness.

The very best soccer players are technical and fast, but half a rung below you have people who are not crazy fast but are tactically aware and technically adept. The latter two trumps raw physical talents.

An apt analogy of U.S. Soccer would be the supremely strong triathlete who transitions to mass start bike racing. The raw talent is there, and the dude may get far on talent alone, but at a certain level (cat 2 and above), the lack of tactical awareness and requisite skills will hamper further progress.



This is solely because of Title IX. The advantage of Title IX is more than able to overcome the subpar coaching, development, scouting, etc. that's also prevalent for women's football. When top foreign female players clamor to show up playing at the collegiate or pro levels in the U.S., you know you have a system that is perhaps the best in the world (albeit seriously flawed in other ways)
I am trying to see this failure to qualify as a positive. So many random thoughts about this very painful subject.

Things at the youth level are changing. Not enough. Perhaps the greatest issue with youth soccer right now is speed of play, which generally favors athletic kids. As a coach I do see some kids that have great tactical sense and good technical ability. BUT if there is only one or two on a side and they are facing bigger, faster kids (especially at the younger ages), the athletic kids win out. I have personally witnessed this far too often.

I have mixed feelings about the "pay to play" structure. It works in so many other U.S. sports, why does it not in soccer. If you want to practice on real soccer fields (vice school playgrounds) with real licensed coaches (vice volunteers), then there will be a cost. I just don't see any other way.

If everyone talks up college women's soccer as the catalyst for the USWNT success yet moan about men's college soccer. What is the difference? I think echappist has that right on.

MLS is far better than folks give it credit. Truth is that has helped the CONCACAF soccer nations far more than the U.S. (there are so many playing in MLS now & that is good). HOWEVER, I truly believe that MLS will continue to improve in quality, CONCACAF players who play there will also improve, the level of CONCACAF play will improve as a result. The USMNT will have to improve as well.

CONCACAF as an organization is broken. T&T match is a case in point. If that flooding had occurred in UEFA, that match wouldn't have happened (or been moved). Too many CONCACAF countries play silly games with pitches and the rest. Refs overall are poor and the overall organization runs a crap show. That has to change. If CONCACAF wants quality players like Pulisic to shine, then this has to change.

Finally, USMNT has some real talent coming through the system (Weah, Sargeant, others). This failure could be a great opportunity to start completely anew with the younger generation.

Cheers, BobC
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  #233  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:10 PM
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FlashUNC FlashUNC is offline
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The best leagues and the best players are all in Europe. Iron sharpens iron. Some US guys playing domestically under a coach who's perhaps best known for the other worst failure in US international soccer history -- also embedded into that MLS racket -- with leadership at US Soccer invested solely in the perpetual monetary success of MLS over, say, putting the best possible product on the field, leads to what happened last night.

CONCACAF is the beer league of international soccer, with every advantage tipped towards the US qualifying, and we still made a hash of it.

Should have left Bruce and Sunil on the airport tarmac as far as I'm concerned.

Time for a hard look at why we should play anyone who gets serious run in MLS over better leagues worldwide, or hire an American coach for that matter.
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  #234  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:16 PM
Jaybee Jaybee is offline
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Not absolving CONCACAF of anything - they are an overflowing toilet of an organization , but there would have been a lot more flexibility to move that match in space or time if it weren't the final round of the Hex. Aren't those played simultaneously to avoid any sort of gaming the results?
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  #235  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:03 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by FlashUNC View Post
The best leagues and the best players are all in Europe. Iron sharpens iron. Some US guys playing domestically under a coach who's perhaps best known for the other worst failure in US international soccer history -- also embedded into that MLS racket -- with leadership at US Soccer invested solely in the perpetual monetary success of MLS over, say, putting the best possible product on the field, leads to what happened last night.

CONCACAF is the beer league of international soccer, with every advantage tipped towards the US qualifying, and we still made a hash of it.

Should have left Bruce and Sunil on the airport tarmac as far as I'm concerned.

Time for a hard look at why we should play anyone who gets serious run in MLS over better leagues worldwide, or hire an American coach for that matter.
I get that the better players do play over in Europe, but I don't think you can point to MLS and say that is the reason USMNT failed.
- Mexico has a large percentage of their players playing in MX & generally have struggled in Europe. (and we have a few playing in Mexico). El Tri breezed through qualifying.
- Take a good look at the MLS players & you'll notice many play for CONCACAF teams. MLS has helped many teams in CONCACAF. It raised the level of play for several countries.

Having said all that, I think it is time for wholesale change. Bring in the new generation.
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  #236  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:24 PM
echappist echappist is offline
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Originally Posted by Jaybee View Post
Not absolving CONCACAF of anything - they are an overflowing toilet of an organization , but there would have been a lot more flexibility to move that match in space or time if it weren't the final round of the Hex. Aren't those played simultaneously to avoid any sort of gaming the results?
of course, but CR and Mex didn't have to show up because they were already in. Had the three matches yesterday been played as the penultimate round of games (say on last Friday), it would have been more likely that USMNT squeeze by, as CR would have been trying their damndest to qualify, and Mexico would have had more incentive to play well. The right alignment of events (or rather, order of games) led to this. Non-issue when a team plays well, but an issue when the quality isn't there

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Originally Posted by FlashUNC View Post
The best leagues and the best players are all in Europe. Iron sharpens iron. Some US guys playing domestically under a coach who's perhaps best known for the other worst failure in US international soccer history -- also embedded into that MLS racket -- with leadership at US Soccer invested solely in the perpetual monetary success of MLS over, say, putting the best possible product on the field, leads to what happened last night.

CONCACAF is the beer league of international soccer, with every advantage tipped towards the US qualifying, and we still made a hash of it.

Should have left Bruce and Sunil on the airport tarmac as far as I'm concerned.

Time for a hard look at why we should play anyone who gets serious run in MLS over better leagues worldwide, or hire an American coach for that matter.
Yes to all of the above.
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Originally Posted by BobC View Post
MLS is far better than folks give it credit. Truth is that has helped the CONCACAF soccer nations far more than the U.S. (there are so many playing in MLS now & that is good). HOWEVER, I truly believe that MLS will continue to improve in quality, CONCACAF players who play there will also improve, the level of CONCACAF play will improve as a result. The USMNT will have to improve as well.
Spot on. Moreover, the issue is that a lot of the MNT players in MLS are essentially collecting paychecks for doing diddly, with no passion and no fire under their behinds. Having unmotivated players is only going to result in underperforming. I joke that perhaps the way Mexico will go down the drain is when they keep fielding players who "retire" to the MLS (e.g. dos Santo brothers)
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CONCACAF as an organization is broken. T&T match is a case in point. If that flooding had occurred in UEFA, that match wouldn't have happened (or been moved). Too many CONCACAF countries play silly games with pitches and the rest. Refs overall are poor and the overall organization runs a crap show. That has to change. If CONCACAF wants quality players like Pulisic to shine, then this has to change.
Yep. CR, Honduras, Panama, and Ecuador are some dirty teams to play against. Total bush league stuff

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Finally, USMNT has some real talent coming through the system (Weah, Sargeant, others). This failure could be a great opportunity to start completely anew with the younger generation.

Cheers, BobC
I hear the U17s are doing well in the U17 World Cup . The main concern is to make sure that the dual nationals (Carters-Vicker and Jonathan Gonzalez) youngsters don't get fazed and decide to join England and Mexico, respectively
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  #237  
Old 10-11-2017, 06:02 PM
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cadence90 cadence90 is offline
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Most of the comments re: USMNT, ConCaCaf, etc. here seem accurate to me. The US is in a bad spot right now, clearly, and there is certainly no easy, short fix.

I think that to compare the women's game to the men's, worldwide, though is just not feasible. International men's soccer, as a subculture, has been evolving in some countries for over a 100 years, putting the US far, far behind. Otoh, the women's game has evolved almost simultaneously worldwide (if not a bit earlier in the US aided by Title IX as stated by echappist above). When I was a boy growing up in ITA in the 60s/70s I played almost every single day, for years on end. Girls just did not play; I don't think anyone even thought twice about it.

I'm not even sure that The Zlatan's 3 sisters ever played, growing up...
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  #238  
Old 10-11-2017, 07:27 PM
wc1934 wc1934 is offline
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Last nite was embarrassing. During the game I texted my daughter saying I think my tv is broken - it is broadcasting the USA team in slow motion. There was no hustle -no urgency- no fighting for the 50-50 balls. There was no leader on the pitch. Couldn't BA see that? Why didn't he put in a sub and encourage an all out kamikaze effort.
We were not playing a Spain or Germany - We were facing Trinidad n Tobago and we couldn't get a point (at first I thought it was a behind closed door game - the stands were empty). This is a very low point in US soccer and unless there are wholesale changes things will not get better.
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  #239  
Old 10-11-2017, 08:47 PM
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Ex-CONCACAF chief Jack Warner after U.S. loss: 'I wanted to party'


The ESPN FC panel ruminate on whether arrogance and complacency cost the U.S. a place at the 2018 World Cup in Russia.
Former CONCACAF president Jack Warner has called Trinidad and Tobago's historic defeat of the United States in World Cup qualifying on Tuesday the happiest day of his life, while adding that "nobody in CONCACAF likes the U.S."

Last-placed T&T extinguished the U.S.'s hopes of qualifying for the 2018 World Cup finals in Russia with an improbable 2-1 upset in Port of Spain. The defeat marked the first time since 1986 the Americans will not participate in sport's biggest showpiece.

And T&T native Werner, whose side were kept out of the 1990 World Cup in similar fashion by the U.S., told a local radio station he couldn't be happier with the result.

"I have not been in better spirits. This is the happiest day of my life," Warner said. "It [the win] couldn't have given me greater joy."

Warner, a former FIFA Vice President, was a main target of the U.S. Department of Justice's wide-ranging sting aimed at cracking down on corruption in the sport, and faces charges stemming from his alleged involvement.


Jack Warner was in a celebratory mood following Trinidad and Tobago's win over the U.S.
And the 74-year-old, who blames the U.S. for turning CONCACAF into a "nightmare," said T&T's win was a striking blow to the Americans.

"They have used their government to help to dismember FIFA in a way that is unimaginable. And last night on the field of play Trinidad and Tobago reduced them to their knees," he said.

Warner, who was in a festive mood, said the national team's triumph was personal for him.

"And for me personally, it has reduced the U.S. to a laughing stock. Last Sept. 27 when the judge ruled against Jack Warner there was a party in the U.S., they were quite happy," said Warner, who is currently fighting extradition to the U.S.

"Knowing that this has happened I wanted to go out and party as they partied last September when a judge ruled against me. I wanted to party. This was my personal feeling".

And he predicted this was the start of the end of U.S. soccer as we know it.

"They will continue to undermine [the World Cup in] Qatar for 2022, but they will not succeed. As far as I am concerned this is the beginning of the end for U.S. football," he said. "Nobody in CONCACAF likes the U.S."

Besler woe vs T and T 171010
The United States, who'd complained of the soggy practice conditions, had cold water thrown on their World Cup dreams.
Meanwhile, T&T assistant coach Stern John admitted his team was angered and inspired by the United States' behavior in the build-up to the shocking result.

John, a former Major League Soccer and Premier League forward, mocked the U.S.'s complaints about the waterlogged field at Ato Boldon Stadium a day before the loss.

"There was a lot of fire in our eyes," John told USA TODAY Sports. "I think it was disrespectful of them."

On Monday, the visitors turned up for practice and were disturbed to find the track surrounding the field under water and the playing surface itself drenched with rainwater. Many of the players had already taped their feet and put on their cleats, and were carried across the water by team staff to avoid getting their feet soaked.

The furor instantly made its way onto social media, U.S. head coach Bruce Arena made no secret of the fact he was not impressed with the conditions, and T&T -- said John -- was not impressed by the way the matter turned into a major incident.

"I think they were a bit overconfident and a bit disrespectful because they came in yesterday and rain fell on the pitch and they were giving each other piggybacks [over the water] and all kind of stuff," John added.

"Rain fell, it is not our fault. They made a big scene out of it and it was international news all over the world. It was all over the media. Our families [told us about it]. Most of our guys are on social media so they see it. They see the USA guys getting piggybacked to the field -- it is embarrassing."

T&T had previously lost six straight games and had gained only three points during the final phase of the road to Russia, but played inspired soccer to hand the U.S. a devastating loss that can only serve to dampen the game's growing momentum in the country.

For the home side is was a measure of revenge for the 1990 World Cup.

"[Revenge] was in the back of the head but I don't think that was the main goal," midfielder Leston Paul said. "The main focus was just on us.

"I think the [U.S.] was a little bit complacent because it is Trinidad and Tobago and we were already out. Football is a funny game. They learned their lesson today."

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Follow @ESPNFC on Twitter to keep up with the latest football updates.
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  #240  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:04 PM
echappist echappist is offline
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Arena out; Gulati should follow suit and fall on the sword or cut the string hanging the sword of Damocles.

Hiddink, Van Gaal, Ranieri, Gullit (gee that's a lot of Dutchmen) are all available.
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