Training: The least amount required.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

For sure it is a fine line. Recovery, is always on my mind. My current schedule is pretty new and is an effort to not waste energy. My "Only the good stuff” plan. That does not mean just HIIT or the like it just means very focused outcome based training.

I had been doing to much. For instance going to the gym and workout out and the working out with friends at martial arts training since they wanted to get some time in doing that. Now I am making sure to be mindful of and combine those. I also make sure my leg training at the gym is not too often and typically more single leg drills for hip strength, so I can get the bike specific training in. But in reality my bike stuff has been next to noting.

I am going to try a super simple training plan and stick too it. But with a goal.

I've PM'ed you with some specific workout suggestions once you sort out your recovery.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by Joachim

I've PM'ed you with some specific workout suggestions once you sort out your recovery.

Cool! I will look at it right away.

Ideally, I would like to be able to ride 3-4 days a week (including the Sunday 4 hour ride) and incrementally gain fitness. I am not sure if that is possible.

Without guidance I would do Tuesday hill repeats and sprint lead outs. This is a favorite of mine. I have two different climbs a mile or so from my house. Each is about a mile, one steady, one with switchbacks that and a flat spot both 6-10% grade. I go up one, come down and after a couple minutes do a sprint lead out in front of the local elementary school using the crosswalks and then down the other and back up. Each is about 4:30 to 5:30 minutes so doing that loop twice is 20 minutes and 3 times is 30 of climbing and 4-6 sprint efforts.

Thursday would be a 95-105% threshold day working on going longer as suggested. Or a harder 3 hour gravel ride with a friend.

Friday would be optional and if I ride it would be easier recovery with a few sprint lead out the efforts for fun. I have a 45-60 mile 2.5-3 hour route I love.

Sunday would be the pain day.

Now I will read your PM

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

Cool! I will look at it right away.

Ideally, I would like to be able to ride 3-4 days a week (including the Sunday 4 hour ride) and incrementally gain fitness. I am not sure if that is possible.

Without guidance I would do Tuesday hill repeats and sprint lead outs. This is a favorite of mine. I have two different climbs a mile or so from my house. Each is about a mile, one steady, one with switchbacks that and a flat spot both 6-10% grade. I go up one, come down and after a couple minutes do a sprint lead out in front of the local elementary school using the crosswalks and then down the other and back up. Each is about 4:30 to 5:30 minutes so doing that loop twice is 20 minutes and 3 times is 30 of climbing and 4-6 sprint efforts.

Thursday would be a 95-105% threshold day working on going longer as suggested. Or a harder 3 hour gravel ride with a friend.

Friday would be optional and if I ride it would be easier recovery with a few sprint lead out the efforts for fun. I have a 45-60 mile 2.5-3 hour route I love.

Sunday would be the pain day.

Now I will read your PM

That sounds reasonable. However, the issue is what you were doing off the bike. Lifting, martial arts, etc. I see nothing about those activities mentioned.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

That sounds reasonable. However, the issue is what you were doing off the bike. Lifting, martial arts, etc. I see nothing about those activities mentioned.

This ^^^. Your cycling workouts can't be seen in isolation. In addition, you say Friday is an optional day with easy recovery, but then you say you have a 45-60 mile 2.5-3hr route. I don't see that as a recovery ride. Easy should be easy.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by Joachim

This ^^^. Your cycling workouts can't be seen in isolation. In addition, you say Friday is an optional day with easy recovery, but then you say you have a 45-60 mile 2.5-3hr route. I don't see that as a recovery ride. Easy should be easy.

My coach would call me from the west coast and yell at me if my recovery rides were more than 60TSS and peak power over 350w. I live in a hilly area so that was a challenge.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

My coach would call me from the west coast and yell at me if my recovery rides were more than 60TSS and peak power over 350w. I live in a hilly area so that was a challenge.

I often tell my riders that live up north in the hillier areas that its better to do a recovery ride on the trainer so they know their avg power and NP are where it should be. Even a short ride, in a hilly area, can lead to high TSS values pretty quick and then there is no time to recover.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by Joachim

This ^^^. Your cycling workouts can't be seen in isolation. In addition, you say Friday is an optional day with easy recovery, but then you say you have a 45-60 mile 2.5-3hr route. I don't see that as a recovery ride. Easy should be easy.

For sure and I would do that as optional. Since things come up I not do weight or MA on a normal day. In that event I could do that optional ride.

I think my actually lifting will only be 2x per week and only about 5-6 total lifts for my entire routine and any a couple sets after warming up. The is like overhead press, dips, weighted pushups, bent rows, pull-ups and squats or deadlifts.

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by Joachim

I often tell my riders that live up north in the hillier areas that its better to do a recovery ride on the trainer so they know their avg power and NP are where it should be. Even a short ride, in a hilly area, can lead to high TSS values pretty quick and then there is no time to recover.

rollers are great for recovery - very low force/low power, but you can have a highish cadence to keep the muscles supple, and you're never far away from snacks.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

For sure and I would do that as optional. Since things come up I not do weight or MA on a normal day. In that event I could do that optional ride.

I think my actually lifting will only be 2x per week and only about 5-6 total lifts for my entire routine and any a couple sets after warming up. The is like overhead press, dips, weighted pushups, bent rows, pull-ups and squats or deadlifts.

Yes, but your other martial arts workouts also stresses the system. Less recovery time. I really think when you start getting into hard martial arts workouts in the morning and hard cycling workout in the evening or vice versa and you have that a couple of days per week, you are preventing cycling improvement at best. At worst you are digging yourself into an overtraining hole. So pay close attention how everything is structured.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by Joachim

Yes, but your other martial arts workouts also stresses the system. Less recovery time. I really think when you start getting into hard martial arts workouts in the morning and hard cycling workout in the evening or vice versa and you have that a couple of days per week, you are preventing cycling improvement at best. At worst you are digging yourself into an overtraining hole. So pay close attention how everything is structured.

Thank you so much. I will pay very careful attention to progress, fatigue and structure in d-loads.

[stephenmarklay]

Originally Posted by nooneline

rollers are great for recovery - very low force/low power, but you can have a highish cadence to keep the muscles supple, and you're never far away from snacks.

This is a very good idea and I had forgotten about. I really need a fast spin day.

[woodworker]

There was an earlier discussion regarding Z2 workouts and base training, and also a discussion of recovery.

One question related to these topics: if you're doing a Z2 workout and ride in that zone for several hours, does it lessen the value or undermine the workout if you spend some additional time at the end of that ride in higher zones, e.g. zones 3 or 4? As an example, I typically ride a fairly flat course with some small hills. After riding out for a few hours, I try some hard intervals--roughly 30 seconds to a minute on the rollers on the way back. Is there a benefit to that, or is it detrimental to the purpose (or recovery) of the Z2 base workout?

Thanks.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by Joachim

I often tell my riders that live up north in the hillier areas that its better to do a recovery ride on the trainer so they know their avg power and NP are where it should be. Even a short ride, in a hilly area, can lead to high TSS values pretty quick and then there is no time to recover.

True, but since I was a crit racer who did so many structured workout, a nice ride outside was a gift for the effort. I have TSS, AP, and NP on my bike computer, and once I started watching them during recovery rides, the yelling stopped.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by Joachim

Yes, but your other martial arts workouts also stresses the system. Less recovery time. I really think when you start getting into hard martial arts workouts in the morning and hard cycling workout in the evening or vice versa and you have that a couple of days per week, you are preventing cycling improvement at best. At worst you are digging yourself into an overtraining hole. So pay close attention how everything is structured.

Exactly. Structured is structured. There is no optional unless you are coached by someone like Joachim who gets it. They can swap workouts for you. What you are trying to do is everything, and eventually, you will be in a deep hole that will be difficult to crawl out of.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by woodworker

There was an earlier discussion regarding Z2 workouts and base training, and also a discussion of recovery.

One question related to these topics: if you're doing a Z2 workout and ride in that zone for several hours, does it lessen the value or undermine the workout if you spend some additional time at the end of that ride in higher zones, e.g. zones 3 or 4? As an example, I typically ride a fairly flat course with some small hills. After riding out for a few hours, I try some hard intervals--roughly 30 seconds to a minute on the rollers on the way back. Is there a benefit to that, or is it detrimental to the purpose (or recovery) of the Z2 base workout?

Thanks.

Then it's not a long Z2 workout anymore. You've changed the parameters. This affects what you do the next day.