Optimal HR Zone for Burning Fat

[11.4]

Originally Posted by Splash

Thanks Guys.

Yes. I am very much aware of the eating less, exercising more line.....Can we perhaps move past that for the purpose of this thread.........??

This is not about cycling per se, that is why I specified this in the OP. I have put on weight from minimal activity over last few months. So I want to lose weight before I get serious in cycling again. Cycling will assist me losing this weight and so wil many other things like diet and other forms of exercise. So, for this moment, my end goal is to lose 15kg. Improving Cycling technique, power, etc will come later...for the purpose of this thread, I want to learn more about Identifying optimal HR zones and nothing more.

If you want to contribute to this thread, can I please ask that you be specific to the OP and thread title and not derail the thread by deviating away.

Thank you


Splash

What people are trying to say here is that the basic question is flawed. It isn't founded in the best exercise research. So if there isn't a preferential fat-metabolism modality to draw upon, you're down to the basics of calories in, calories out.

Nobody is trying to redirect this thread. They're just trying to address the legitimacy of the question.

[SoCalSteve]

Originally Posted by 11.4

What people are trying to say here is that the basic question is flawed. It isn't founded in the best exercise research. So if there isn't a preferential fat-metabolism modality to draw upon, you're down to the basics of calories in, calories out.

Nobody is trying to redirect this thread. They're just trying to address the legitimacy of the question.

Thanks Lane!

I think the simple answer is just that...the less calories you put in your body, the more weight you will lose. Again, it’s a very simple equation. You can spin it all you want...but in the end, eat less and exercise more.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Splash

Thanks for the detailed reply.

What % of VO2max (and over what duration of time) would you advise for maximising the portion of energy that is burned as fat?

For weight reduction driven exercise, is the optimal time of day to exercise - for maximising the portion of energy that is burned as fat - deemed to be after awaking from sleep AND before any food calorie/energy intake?

I have read that this is the best time because your body has been working throughout the night processing any ingested food from the day before and so any energy burned (during exercise after waking up) will be mostly from existing body fat storage and not much from any food calorie/energy. Is this correct? Something to do with insulin levels...?

What does "other fat sources" represent on that bar chart you provided?



Splash

as others said, don't worry about fat burning per se, and instead worry about energy expended. A good 70-80% of weight loss is based on calorie in calorie out.

The other thing is, if you need to do a 4-5 hour ride, the majority of your effort will be at ~55-65% of VO2max anyways. If you have just 1.5 hours and you want to get fast, you'll be doing intervals at 95% VO2max for 30 minutes. Let the target dictate your training, and have the type of riding you do come out as a result of that.

That said, fasted riding might benefit you (though it might deplete muscle mass). The thing here is that if you wake up early and manage a 1.5-hour ride at 60% while fasted, it would be more likely for you to skip out on calories and not feel the effect. However, it's still a calories in/calories out thing at the end. The other thing is that it'd be very hard to go at higher intensity on a full stomach. At the end of the day, it's a balancing act. When i need to do a long ride, i try to go early and not eat for the first 90 minutes for calorie management. But if I want to hit a performance target, i'll eat something.

[Splash]

Thanks Echappist.

What does "other fat sources" represent on that bar chart you provided earlier in this thread?

You also stated earlier in this thread that a value less than 55% VO2max is better for Maximising the portion of energy that is burned for fat. What is this value?


Splash

[echappist]

The other source of fat is triglycerides in muscles

as for "You also stated earlier in this thread that a value less than 55% VO2max is better for Maximising the portion of energy that is burned for fat. What is this value?"

I'm not sure myself, but you can see a trend in that graph showing where fat burned as portion of total energy burned would be a bit less than 55% VO2max.

But I think in reality, you should ask yourself the following (i know you don't have a power meter, but it's highly relevant as watt produced leads to calories burned.

Say your VO2max is 360W. You have 90 minutes to ride. Which would burn more energy (and lead to greater weight loss, or allow you to eat more).

Would this be doing 200W for 90 minutes (during which ~60% of the energy comes from fat), or would this be doing 270W for 90 minutes (during which ~30% of the energy comes from fat)?

The energy expenditure in the former is 200 Joule/s (that's definition of a watt) x 3600 s/hr x 1.5 hr = 1080 kJ, of which 648 is from fat. In the latter, it would be 1458 kJ, of which 437 is from fat. When it comes to physiology, the generation of a Joule (as energy output) requires about 4.1 Joules (as energy input), and as 4.18 Joule = 1 calorie, 1080 kJ generate ~1080 kCal (that's the unit on nutrition labels) burned. The latter would allow you to eat ~400kCal more food without gaining any weight

[Splash]

Fantastic stuff! Wow!

Time to invest in a power meter...thinking of getting the new Vector 3 when they are released...

Do you have any other similar charts like the one you provided earlier outlining fat burned/energy/level of effort, etc..?

Splash

[Splash]

As glycogen is fuel for your muscles and used for energy production, optimizing glycogen stores is important.

How does one know when these glycogen stores are optimised?

In what ways are these stores optimised?



Splash

[Louis]

Wow - all this time, I've been riding my bike primarily because it's fun.

Splash, good luck with your fitness program. It doesn't sound like this is what you're looking for, but just the same, I'd suggest you not try to over-think it. Just ride the bike. If you want to be faster, then ride harder. If you want to loose weight, then ride longer.

Edit: If you really want to loose weight, then try running instead of cycling. Calorie-wise riding a bike is super-efficient. Running is much less efficient. So assuming your knees can take the beating, in the same amount of time you'll burn way more calories running than you will cycling.

[ripvanrando]

180-age for most people.

180-age-10 for out of condition

180-age+5 for fit individuals

https://philmaffetone.com/what-is-the-maffetone-method/

[ripvanrando]

Originally Posted by Splash

As glycogen is fuel for your muscles and used for energy production, optimizing glycogen stores is important.

How does one know when these glycogen stores are optimised?

In what ways are these stores optimised?



Splash

You have to burn fat to lose it. Constantly filling your glycogen stores will raise insulin levels and store MORE fat and actually work against you


Just go for long rides before eating breakfast. Only drink water. Skip the post ride carb gulps. Eat your regular diet. Do not increase consumption. 15 Kg can be lost in 2-3 months of diligent effort but it won't be easy.

GL

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Splash

Fantastic stuff! Wow!

Time to invest in a power meter...thinking of getting the new Vector 3 when they are released...

Do you have any other similar charts like the one you provided earlier outlining fat burned/energy/level of effort, etc..?

Splash

unfortunately no other charts

Originally Posted by Splash

As glycogen is fuel for your muscles and used for energy production, optimizing glycogen stores is important.

How does one know when these glycogen stores are optimised?

In what ways are these stores optimised?



Splash

Apologies as I don't know.

I think key here is to step back and think about what you want to get out of this. Better performance? Leaner physique? A mix of both?

Good nutrition will also help to make this easier. Vegetables and fibers make you satiated, and at the end of the day, discipline with food (with allowance for weekly mulligans) is the way to go

Powermeters are good as a calorie expenditure device, but they are much more than just that. You'll want to be sure you would be okay with looking at loads of data, etc. Just a few other thoughts

Originally Posted by Louis

Wow - all this time, I've been riding my bike primarily because it's fun.

Splash, good luck with your fitness program. It doesn't sound like this is what you're looking for, but just the same, I'd suggest you not try to over-think it. Just ride the bike. If you want to be faster, then ride harder. If you want to loose weight, then ride longer.

Edit: If you really want to loose weight, then try running instead of cycling. Calorie-wise riding a bike is super-efficient. Running is much less efficient. So assuming your knees can take the beating, in the same amount of time you'll burn way more calories running than you will cycling.

efficiency has a different meaning in running that it does in cycling. The second thing is that one could go longer (and expend more energy) cycling than running. End goal is energy expenditure, and cycling would go further in that department.

The other thing i would suggest is to incorporate some weight lifting. Not to get big, but to increase muscle mass, which requires higher amounts of energy to maintain than a corresponding mass of fat.

[velofinds]

Originally Posted by ripvanrando

Just go for long rides before eating breakfast. Only drink water. Skip the post ride carb gulps. Eat your regular diet. Do not increase consumption. 15 Kg can be lost in 2-3 months of diligent effort but it won't be easy.

This is good practical advice and pretty much all you need. Don't overthink this stuff- in doing so, you overcomplicate something that isn't all that difficult to figure out (now sticking to- that's a different matter).

[2metalhips]

Look at what you are eating. A plant based diet will help you lose weight and be much better for your overall health in the long run.

[SoCalSteve]

Originally Posted by ripvanrando

You have to burn fat to lose it. Constantly filling your glycogen stores will raise insulin levels and store MORE fat and actually work against you


Just go for long rides before eating breakfast. Only drink water. Skip the post ride carb gulps. Eat your regular diet. Do not increase consumption. 15 Kg can be lost in 2-3 months of diligent effort but it won't be easy.

GL

How long a ride are you talking about without eating? I’d be so afraid of bonking doing this. Seriously afraid. Have you ever bonked? It’s not fun. At all.

Anything more than 2 hours without replenishing your stores is a recipe for bonking.

Not sure this is such great advice. Again, if you’ve ever bonked, you will never ever want to do this again. Ever.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by echappist

The second thing is that one could go longer (and expend more energy) cycling than running. End goal is energy expenditure, and cycling would go further in that department.

Perhaps, but if you have a limited amount of time then going with the greater calories / minute activity may allow you to burn more calories.