So are canti breaks totally obsolete?

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

I think the reason you have not sold it is because there is no for sale add here. i think that if you had a CX rock lobster in my size with canti brakes this guy would be having a hard look. i don't disc, i canti.

same.

[Mzilliox]

Originally Posted by chiasticon

same.

right, i mean how can you come to the best bike classified site on the planet and then talk about how you can't sell your bike when you haven't posted an add???

ok, subtle hint time over

[AngryScientist]

not obsolete at my house.

i suppose i might feel differently if i rode in the wet a lot on sketchy descents, but i am perfectly content with rim brakes.

i will say, it is becoming harder and harder to find canti bikes for sale. i just bought a steel canti bike, but was really searching around to see what options were available. ritchey is not making canti cross bikes anymore, and all city has stopped production on the macho man canti.

[marciero]

Originally Posted by NHAero

I'm confused about why the hanger location for the cantis affects fork shudder.
Because the braking force is applied closer to the fork crown with cantis and V brakes, may I assume that disc brakes are more susceptible to fork shudder, applying the force nearer to the fork tips where the lever arm length is longer?

There are actually two things happening. The braking force has two effects, one of which is to twist the fork blades outward and the other is a backward bending of the fork. With regard to the first, the fork blades are twisted by the braking force at the rim, which acts like a lever twisting the fork at the brake studs. With cantis and V's the post is lower than with center pull, so there is more of a lever arm, which is the length of fork between rim and studs. Also, the blade is thinner there, so more twisting. The catch-and-release is like a bow on a violin string, so there is a resonance at a natural frequency which we feel as shudder.

The other thing is that the braking force bends the fork backward. My understanding is that this is less a cause of shudder. This force is proportional to the ratio of the wheel radius to the braking surface radius. This is essentially one for rim brake, but explains the much greater force on the fork due to disc brakes.

As far as I can tell, the location of the hanger and/or cable stop does not play a role on where the force is concentrated. If locating it on the fork crown reduces shudder, it could be due to a small change in the resonant frequency of the entire system.

[bicycletricycle]

Anyone who rides a bike with cantilever brakes is taking unnecessary safety risks. I almost crash every time I ride my cantilever equipped bikes specifically because of the lack of brake performance. It is a crime to make a new bicycle frame with cantilever brake mounts.

[Mzilliox]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

Anyone who rides a bike with cantilever brakes is taking unnecessary safety risks. I almost crash every time I ride my cantilever equipped bikes specifically because of the lack of brake performance. It is a crime to make a new bicycle frame with cantilever brake mounts.

good public service announcement, please donate all your Canti bikes to me directly for your own safety.

[benb]

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

Most disc forks are so sturdy that they dont have a lot of shudder even tho the braking force is applied with a longer leverage closer to the hub.

A disc brake can flex the fork the same way as a Canti and not cause shudder because the fork flexing won't change cable tension or hydraulic forces. The issue with Cantilevers is the flex affects the brake force. It's about the only design that does that AFAICT. IIRC some moto suspension forks can get something similar to shudder but it doesn't have the same root cause, there it's the tire rapidly breaking lose and recovering or something like that.

This seems to have never been a concern for bicycles till gravel/road disc became a thing as suspension forks with discs always tended to be overbuilt for safety/jumping reasons.

There is a lot of marketing about engineering with bicycles but a lot of it seems like it could be/is nonsense, it's really hard to understand how canti brakes ever became popular without them all coming with hangers mounted right near the brake right from the beginning.. the first person to put a canti brake bike together must have run into this.. or maybe they didn't cause the brake pads were terrible back then.

[bicycletricycle]

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

good public service announcement, please donate all your Canti bikes to me directly for your own safety.

I will be destroying them to keep the world safe

[ColonelJLloyd]

My guess is the sale status of the bike has little to do with the brakes it has. To a lot of people a CX bike is not a gravel bike. Many folks don't like high BBs and appreciate useful braze ons. No need to blame disc brakes because you haven't sold your bike.

This thread, as nearly all about brakes these days, has overly dramatic hand wringing in defense of cantilever brakes. It's awfully tired at this point.

[colker]

Originally Posted by nickrenfro

I've had this rock lobster for quite some time now - have loved every ride I've taken it on. It's beginning to be that time though where I look at my stable and try and decide which of that too many bikes I already have I should get rid of so that I can afford something else. I thought I had posted this bike up for a proper price - it's california steel with all of the good stuff, but no one is biting. Maybe it's not cx season or maybe, which is what I'm actually thinking, canti bikes are dead. What is everyones opinion on this? Does no one buy canti bikes anymore?

I don´t get posts like this. You love the bike then you will sell it because a bunch of guys on line tell you to do so? Because technology is outdated?
Sure, go ahead and sell it but do it on the cheap then someone who does not gove a F%&k about technology trends will get an awesome bike and a great deal.
Got to love the internet.
Btw: no one should have 10 bikes. It makes your azz looks fat.

[earlfoss]

Canti "breaks" are super dangerous and everyone who has used them has died.

Throw the whole bike in the trash and start over before you get hurt!

[bicycletricycle]

more seriously though, someone at my work was looking for a nice fat tire road bike. He was convinced that he needed disc brakes. I got him a good deal on a titanium serotta cx frame with canti mounts and threw on some mini v brakes. He has been satisfied with the set up and has no desire to get a disc set up. He also does not commute or ride in the rain so the all weather part of disc performance is not really that important.

It does seem like the market is taking is a serious turn towards discs though. I think that all bikes with rim brakes will soon be "vintage" to average consumer.

[crankles]

Since the OP was referring to CX bikes and cantis, I'd say that ship has sailed, especially if we are talking racing CX and hydro discs. Cantis were never 'great' brakes for cross bikes. They were a necessary evil used to fill a need. I started my cross career on an Alan with Barum tires and Mafac brakes. Mr Grumpys were better, Pauls, better still. But those were incremental improvements on a marginal braking system. Hydro discs are a paradigm shift in comparison IMHO (again, for the use cases stated...I wouldn't have needed discs on the flats surrounding Indiapolis).

[tuscanyswe]

Thats true i think i was hastily talking of flex not actual shudder tho I did have a disc fork with very similar traits to shudder.

Originally Posted by benb

A disc brake can flex the fork the same way as a Canti and not cause shudder because the fork flexing won't change cable tension or hydraulic forces. The issue with Cantilevers is the flex affects the brake force. It's about the only design that does that AFAICT. IIRC some moto suspension forks can get something similar to shudder but it doesn't have the same root cause, there it's the tire rapidly breaking lose and recovering or something like that.

This seems to have never been a concern for bicycles till gravel/road disc became a thing as suspension forks with discs always tended to be overbuilt for safety/jumping reasons.

There is a lot of marketing about engineering with bicycles but a lot of it seems like it could be/is nonsense, it's really hard to understand how canti brakes ever became popular without them all coming with hangers mounted right near the brake right from the beginning.. the first person to put a canti brake bike together must have run into this.. or maybe they didn't cause the brake pads were terrible back then.

[nickrenfro]

Well I'm glad there's still people out there who are all about them - even if that means it is just a niche within a niche. I'd post a link to the ad here, but I'm not sure if it's against the rules to post CL links? I've been a silent buying member on the forum for years, but never got the post count to start threads in the classifieds.