I prefer cantilever brakes for gravel (and CX) bikes

[sandyrs]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

I agree with this statement 100%. I am happy for anyone happy on their cantis. Stay safe and have fun, just don't sell me a fictitious bill of goods about comparisons on power/modulation/reliability/chatter.

On the road, my campy calipers stop me just fine, as does my disc setup on the road. I am not going to pretend one isn't a more effective stopper than the other.

Backed

[zzy]

As another tall guy, one thing I don't like about cantis is that all the extra brake line and the often awkward hanger bosses lead to mushy feel and noise issues on big bikes. Fork mounted stops go a long way to help (like on your BMtnC). Otherwise brake squeal/shudder is a fact of life (wish I knew that a decade ago). Not many wrenches these days really know how to set them up well either. Honestly, if you aren't riding in muddy stuff mini-Vs are tough to beat, esp because even the cheap ones work great with good pads.

Otherwise, I really like hydro brakes on really large bikes. Much less hand fatigue, esp when loaded touring with a 250lb+ bike + rider. Almost no added mush from the long lines. Great in the wet. Self adjusting (this alone is the selling point vs. Cantis which always need tweaking).

e - worth mentioning that if you want canti stud framesets and 700c rim brake MTB wheels, they have NEVER been cheaper on the used market with everyone going disc these days.

[echelon_john]

Just a gratuitous shot of my 64cm BMC MonsterCross.

[sparky33]

Originally Posted by Gummee

you'll love the Revo-X brakes

indeed, Revox are the best cantilever brakes. Smart design, easy set-up, lots of power.

Though I use hydraulic discs for cyclocross, and I'm pretty happy about that.

[donevwil]

Originally Posted by teleguy57

following this with interest. Campy rim brakes on my road bike, Tektro 720 calipers on my fender bike. Thinking about what I would want to have for braking for a next bike for larger tires. Was thinking disc, but this thread has me reconsidering Paul Racer/Racer M or even a high-quality canti.

Anyone have a good reference to optimizing canti setup? Or perhaps someone would start a new thread on that? Seems that those who like them have figured out how to make them work best. My 720s are a lower-end brake that I bet would benefit from being set up better....

Thanks!

If I were to buy an all new monstercross/allroad/yada yada bike with wheels and groupset I'd definitely go disc. Unfortunately I don't fit any stock full bike offerings so it would have to be a custom frameset, new group (I have only Campy 10) and new wheelset path, way too expensive.

The best cantis I've used are the Suntour XC-Pros mentioned above. That said they were only OK with stock pads and set-up with a standard straddle cable, but set themselves apart when I added Mathauser (Yokozuna) Salmon pads and the fore-mentioned Suntour Power Hanger. Older cantis that use post mount pads are far more adjustable/tunable than those using stud mount pads with spherical washers. More time consuming to set up, but better in the end IMO. Also the beefy forged arms of a Suntour or old Shimano canti are far stiffer than a Paul, sheetmetal Mafac, etc. A word about pads, I hate Kool-Stop thinlines. Very little volume and small effective braking area when really on them. They glaze over easily under my 240# and aggressive braking on steep, fast descents. Also, the Kool Stop Salmon formulation is definitely different than that of the original Scott-Mathauser and now Yokozuna Salmons. Kool Stops are noticeably harder (higher durometer) and simply don't work as well as Mathauser/Yokozuna pads.

The Suntours perform best with the lower arm vertical and the straddle cable at the hanger near 90° when applied (Suntour even provide a cut-out diagram in the original instructions). The Power Hanger must maintain close to this angle or performance is sacrificed. I once used the set-up on a 700c bike with 375 AtC and it didn't work well at all, the angle was way too large and that bike ultimately received Mini Motos. My BMC has a 400 AtC and that, apparently, makes all the difference.

The Racer M's on my Potts perform very well after I ditched the thinlines in front in favor of larger salmon Kool Stop Mountain Pads. I'd still like to find a pad with greater volume, but the layout of any Paul brake appears too limiting.

I don't have a pdf of the canti instructions, but here's one for the Power Hanger. It gives you an idea of all the variables in the set-up process.

Power Hanger.jpg

[572cv]

I like canti's fine, assuming a set up reasonably well done. I like that they are light and intuitive. I like the stopping power of discs, but have had difficulty getting a subtle but audible squeak-squeak-squeak out of them from time to time. I think the modulation is decent, and of course, the ease of switching wheels with different rim widths is slick. But I really like mini-v's, and my new bike is set up with Paul Minimotos. The front fork is an Enve canti fork, and the frame is an Eriksen, so really solid mounting situations, no shudder. Lots of tire space. I'm still amazed by the light finger pressure needed for braking, not sure if that is the Paul's or the DuraAce levers. The Pauls make for a really well designed, light system.

[KidWok]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Not 'all'..

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/crosshairs

Yep...I specifically avoided disc brakes for my gravel bike. Disc brake forks just don't have the supple ride quality that I've come to enjoy from something like a Waterford flat crown fork. This frameset came from forum member commfire. I've since had it powder coated and it's my go-to bike for most of my riding, even on paved roads.

Tai

[Clean39T]

^^ I used to ride by that spot every day when commuting from Ravenna to Bellevue in the early '00s...your pic brought back some good memories...though I feel like I can count the number of sunny commutes on one hand...

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by KidWok

Disc brake forks just don't have the supple ride quality that I've come to enjoy from something like a Waterford flat crown fork.

This is an often cited reason for rim brakes on bikes and surely there is more deflection from more slender and thin walled steel fork blades. But, at what point do the volume of tires combined with low pressures completely eclipse this? I don't think this has been tested, but my own anecdotal evidence suggests it's somewhere between 23mm/110psi and 50mm/30psi.

[KidWok]

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

This is an often cited reason for rim brakes on bikes and surely there is more deflection from more slender and thin walled steel fork blades. But, at what point do the volume of tires combined with low pressures completely eclipse this? I don't think this has been tested, but my own anecdotal evidence suggests it's somewhere between 23mm/110psi and 50mm/30psi.

Sure...you could probably run your tires a bit bigger/lower pressure, but the performance and comfort of the fork will be above and beyond whatever ride tuning you can do with the tires.

Tai

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

Rubbish.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by KidWok

Sure...you could probably run your tires a bit bigger/lower pressure, but the performance and comfort of the fork will be above and beyond whatever ride tuning you can do with the tires.

Tai

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it, but what scientific evidence is there of this? This is my point; it's not been quantified. You're suggesting that the steel fork blades are deflecting in a perceptible way while running a 50mm slick with 30psi and in a good (not noodly) manner? And you have experience with this combo? If the fork is deflecting past the point of a tire that fat with that low pressure that sounds like a detriment, not a benefit.

Seems logical to me that the same fork blades that are offering some magical, smoothing ride with 23mm tires at 110psi isn't doing the same thing with 50mm tires at 30psi because the road imperfections are soaked up at the tire before reaching the fork blade.

[echelon_john]

Not true.

A primary reason for fork shudder with cantilevers is the combination of a steerer/stem mounted cable stop, combined with the flexing of the fork blades.

The blades' flexing during braking effectively tension/detension the brake cable between the cable stop and the straddle cable, causing the shudder. The harder you squeeze, the more the fork flexes, the more the effect is amplified.

Discs that use a full run of cable housing (if mechanical) or hose completely negate this phenomenon.

Add in the stiffer/beefier fork blades used in disc fork construction and the risk of shudder is reduced further.

Not saying shudder is impossible with discs, but WAY less likely than with cantis.

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

[KidWok]

Yeah...I have a pretty decent amount of experience with the Waterford fork. Have spec'ed it for myself twice on Roadies and also twice on Crosshairs. During these times, I've owned a lot of other road and cross bikes using various forks. I've been able to play around with various combinations of wheels, frames, tires, etc. I'm not merely suggesting that the steel fork blades are "deflecting" in a perceptible way...I know it to be true. The taper of the fork offers the effect of a variable spring rate suspension. If you look down, you can see the fork tips floating over imperfections in the road and keeping the tires planted. I've observed this both with 23's at 110psi and 32-35's at 50-60psi.

Running bigger tires with lower volume is a different sensation than having a responsive fork. It's more of a dampening effect, in contrast to the steel fork springing back after deflection. And my point remains that the fork's performance benefits are above and beyond whatever tuning done with tire volume and pressure.

The Waterford cyclocross fork in particular is head and shoulders above various forks for both canti and disc brakes that've I've used, including Serotta, Salsa, Alpha Q, Tange (Soma), generic aluminum, and full titanium. I've put the road version head to head against Reynolds Ouzo Pro, Deda Black Magic, Colnago Precisa, Seven 5E, and lord knows how many other forks. The only thing that has come close to it has been Columbus SLX and Tange Prestige forks of similar taper and curvature.

Tai

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it, but what scientific evidence is there of this? This is my point; it's not been quantified. You're suggesting that the steel fork blades are deflecting in a perceptible way while running a 50mm slick with 30psi and in a good (not noodly) manner? And you have experience with this combo? If the fork is deflecting past the point of a tire that fat with that low pressure that sounds like a detriment, not a benefit.

Seems logical to me that the same fork blades that are offering some magical, smoothing ride with 23mm tires at 110psi isn't doing the same thing with 50mm tires at 30psi because the road imperfections are soaked up at the tire before reaching the fork blade.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by KidWok

Running bigger tires with lower volume is a different sensation than having a responsive fork. It's more of a dampening effect, in contrast to the steel fork springing back after deflection. And my point remains that the fork's performance benefits are above and beyond whatever tuning done with tire volume and pressure.

And it's your take that this springing benefit will exist no matter how much tire volume and how low the psi? Doesn't seem logical to me that the fork can react the same regardless of tire volume and pressure.