Mavic Open Pro Exalith 2017

[Fatty]

Originally Posted by vqdriver

imma get me some. was considering carbon just because the al rim innovation seems to have gone stagnant and altho there are plenty of choices, nothing to really differentiate them. challenge was finding 32h carbon, but screw that. i'll take exalith

There is a 32 hole from Nox. $400 a pop.

[vqdriver]

Yeah, was made aware of that, and a few others iirc, in another thread, but i still have doubts about braking. Im in the city and sudden stops are not infrequent. I can pass on the carbon bling until braking is sorted. Doesnt need to be better than al but i dont want to take a step back.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by vqdriver

imma get me some. was considering carbon just because the al rim innovation seems to have gone stagnant and altho there are plenty of choices, nothing to really differentiate them. challenge was finding 32h carbon, but screw that. i'll take exalith

Thats exactly where I am at. Depending on the outcome of a job I am up for, I was going to treat myself to new Enves. Now I think its new open pros to R45s and a campy stages power meter instead. these rims and the sample wheels so far look so sick.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by vqdriver

Yeah, was made aware of that, and a few others iirc, in another thread, but i still have doubts about braking. Im in the city and sudden stops are not infrequent. I can pass on the carbon bling until braking is sorted. Doesnt need to be better than al but i dont want to take a step back.

The only place I would say carbon might be sketchy is the mountains, in the city or flat, its fine.

[thwart]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

The only place I would say carbon might be sketchy is the mountains, in the city or flat, its fine.

Unless it rains.

As I mentioned earlier, a 420 gm alloy all-black rim with great braking is a very smart move by Mavic.

At ~ $175 it competes nicely with carbon clincher rims... most of which weigh about the same.

Carbon's big advantage really is in tubular wheels, IMO.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by thwart

Unless it rains.

As I mentioned earlier, a 420 gm alloy all-black rim with great braking is a very smart move by Mavic.

At ~ $175 it competes nicely with carbon clincher rims... most of which weigh about the same.

Carbon's big advantage really is in tubular wheels, IMO.

carbons advantage is not just weight but aeroness and stiffness. I am a fan of alloy rims but a 420g alloy rim is not going to be as stiff as a 420g carbon rim and a 420g carbon rim will have a much deeper profile.

Of course if you don't care about any of those things then screw carbon because braking sucks and its more expensive.

I don't think carbon rim braking will ever be as good as alloy. I think they will slow down putting money into that now that disc brakes are here and when it comes to that, carbon is probably a better material for disc brake wheels.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

I don't think carbon rim braking will ever be as good as alloy. I think they will slow down putting money into that now that disc brakes are here and when it comes to that, carbon is probably a better material for disc brake wheels.

That was actually my thinking too. The open pros are going to be my next caliper wheels, but I think my disc bikes are gonna end up getting something nice, like Enves.

[bitpuddle]

Originally Posted by geordanh

There are no other off the shelf rim only aluminum options where the brake track will stay dark coloured after extended use. The anodizing or paint on other rims will always wear off after a couple rides. Exalith doesn't last forever, but looks sweet for a long time usually.

The Hed Ardennes black brake surface stays black. I'm two seasons into a set and they are still good.

[bitpuddle]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

For example, HED Jet Plus wheels are tubeless-ready, and have a distinct "shelf" that holds the tire bead firmly. Although the rims have an inner width of 20.5mm (outer width 25mm), they specify that tires must be at least 22 mm wide (although they also note that a 22 mm labelled tire on a Plus rim will expand out to closer to 25 mm).

Jets are tubeless in theory. Because of the non-structural faring, a tubeless valve really wouldn't work. Ardennes Plus are a better example to make your point.

The only reason you'd run a 22 mil tire on those rims is to maximize aero efficiency, and then only on the front. Otherwise, it defeats some of the wide rim benefits. It is a small race-day benefit.

[November Dave]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

carbons advantage is not just weight but aeroness and stiffness. I am a fan of alloy rims but a 420g alloy rim is not going to be as stiff as a 420g carbon rim and a 420g carbon rim will have a much deeper profile.

Of course if you don't care about any of those things then screw carbon because braking sucks and its more expensive.

I don't think carbon rim braking will ever be as good as alloy. I think they will slow down putting money into that now that disc brakes are here and when it comes to that, carbon is probably a better material for disc brake wheels.

I'd actually question/challenge every element of your initial assumption. First, there aren't all that many 420g carbon clincher rims. They exist, but there aren't a whole lot of them, and the ones that do exist aren't going to have notable aerodynamics. The previous generation (before the just-released very wide ones) Enve 3.4 front rim was +/- 420g, but the aerodynamics there certainly weren't eye-popping compared to good alloys (I've tested it in the tunnel). And though the Pacenti SL23 had its issues, it was laterally stiffer than the 3.4 front, by a bit (tested that, too).

A pair of "just under 500g" +/-30mm deep alloy rims just proved themselves the aerodynamic equal of the market leading 45mm deep carbon clinchers, which weigh much more than either of the alloys and there's no appreciable lateral stiffness difference. Some radial stiffness pickup, but not to the degree that you'd notice riding or modify a build because of it.

The recent BikeRadar super deep wheels test showed the HED Jet to be the stiffest wheel on test (maybe it was just behind the deepest Enves, but in any case better than most of the deep carbons). And the Jet is a non-structural carbon fairing on an alloy rim. The fairing probably adds some small bit of stiffness, but not a whole ton. And the Jets were among the lightest wheels in that test, where the wheels were generally in the 1750 to 1900g range.

I don't mean to belabor the points or be argumentative, it's just that there are all of these assumptions, and it took a long time and a lot of testing and research for me to get over them myself, but over them I am. I will, however, gladly grant you that carbon is more expensive and has inferior braking.

Oh - they make very long tubeless-threaded valve extenders, so you could set up a Jet or other deep wheels tubeless with almost no degree of extra hassle over doing it with a shallower wheel.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by November Dave

I'd actually question/challenge every element of your initial assumption. First, there aren't all that many 420g carbon clincher rims. They exist, but there aren't a whole lot of them, and the ones that do exist aren't going to have notable aerodynamics. The previous generation (before the just-released very wide ones) Enve 3.4 front rim was +/- 420g, but the aerodynamics there certainly weren't eye-popping compared to good alloys (I've tested it in the tunnel). And though the Pacenti SL23 had its issues, it was laterally stiffer than the 3.4 front, by a bit (tested that, too).

A pair of "just under 500g" +/-30mm deep alloy rims just proved themselves the aerodynamic equal of the market leading 45mm deep carbon clinchers, which weigh much more than either of the alloys and there's no appreciable lateral stiffness difference. Some radial stiffness pickup, but not to the degree that you'd notice riding or modify a build because of it.

The recent BikeRadar super deep wheels test showed the HED Jet to be the stiffest wheel on test (maybe it was just behind the deepest Enves, but in any case better than most of the deep carbons). And the Jet is a non-structural carbon fairing on an alloy rim. The fairing probably adds some small bit of stiffness, but not a whole ton. And the Jets were among the lightest wheels in that test, where the wheels were generally in the 1750 to 1900g range.

I don't mean to belabor the points or be argumentative, it's just that there are all of these assumptions, and it took a long time and a lot of testing and research for me to get over them myself, but over them I am. I will, however, gladly grant you that carbon is more expensive and has inferior braking.

Oh - they make very long tubeless-threaded valve extenders, so you could set up a Jet or other deep wheels tubeless with almost no degree of extra hassle over doing it with a shallower wheel.

hey, I was going by what I have ridden and my old enve 45s were stiffer than anything that I had ridden when it comes to alloy. Was that in my head? Can't tell you but they felt super stiff when getting out of the saddle.

You are right that there are not many deep carbon wheels at 420g but that was just a number I threw out, what I wanted to convey is that at the same weight, carbon wheels will be deeper (doesnt mean more aero per say). For example, the new velocity quill which are probably some of the lightest wheels for alloy at that width (I know there are lighter alloy wheels that are not as deep and are made out of cheese), they weight 415g at 24.5 profile. Now take a reynolds attack, at 29mm deep and at 384g. So, its deeper and lighter. I haven't tried the velocity quill but you mentioned the pacentis which were way too light and people have had tons of problems with them. The new forzas are about 40g heavier per wheel.

I cannot argue with the tests you did, although I would love to see the data or links to that because its interesting to me. Specially the 30mm alloys being as aerodynamic as the 45mm leading carbon wheels and also the pacentis being more stiff than similar carbon wheels. Maybe "they" been lying about carbon being very stiff and some of the stiffest material out there

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

hey, I was going by what I have ridden and my old enve 45s were stiffer than anything that I had ridden when it comes to alloy. Was that in my head? Can't tell you but they felt super stiff when getting out of the saddle.

You are right that there are not many deep carbon wheels at 420g but that was just a number I threw out, what I wanted to convey is that at the same weight, carbon wheels will be deeper (doesnt mean more aero per say). For example, the new velocity quill which are probably some of the lightest wheels for alloy at that width (I know there are lighter alloy wheels that are not as deep and are made out of cheese), they weight 415g at 24.5 profile. Now take a reynolds attack, at 29mm deep and at 384g. So, its deeper and lighter. I haven't tried the velocity quill but you mentioned the pacentis which were way too light and people have had tons of problems with them. The new forzas are about 40g heavier per wheel.

I cannot argue with the tests you did, although I would love to see the data or links to that because its interesting to me. Specially the 30mm alloys being as aerodynamic as the 45mm leading carbon wheels and also the pacentis being more stiff than similar carbon wheels. Maybe "they" been lying about carbon being very stiff and some of the stiffest material out there

Depends on what you mean by stiff. Vertically or laterally stiff? Unless under a severe force very few rims will yield vertically because the tire does all the vertical deflection. The rim is not the sole determinant in lateral stiffness regardless of rim material. Also, carbon can be made very stiff but that is a design choice; layup and profile will determine stiffness of a carbon member, not the fact that it is carbon.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

Depends on what you mean by stiff. Vertically or laterally stiff? Unless under a severe force very few rims will yield vertically because the tire does all the vertical deflection. The rim is not the sole determinant in lateral stiffness regardless of rim material. Also, carbon can be made very stiff but that is a design choice; layup and profile will determine stiffness of a carbon member, not the fact that it is carbon.

the wheels I had felt very stiff horizontally.

[November Dave]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

hey, I was going by what I have ridden and my old enve 45s were stiffer than anything that I had ridden when it comes to alloy. Was that in my head? Can't tell you but they felt super stiff when getting out of the saddle.

You are right that there are not many deep carbon wheels at 420g but that was just a number I threw out, what I wanted to convey is that at the same weight, carbon wheels will be deeper (doesnt mean more aero per say). For example, the new velocity quill which are probably some of the lightest wheels for alloy at that width (I know there are lighter alloy wheels that are not as deep and are made out of cheese), they weight 415g at 24.5 profile. Now take a reynolds attack, at 29mm deep and at 384g. So, its deeper and lighter. I haven't tried the velocity quill but you mentioned the pacentis which were way too light and people have had tons of problems with them. The new forzas are about 40g heavier per wheel.

I cannot argue with the tests you did, although I would love to see the data or links to that because its interesting to me. Specially the 30mm alloys being as aerodynamic as the 45mm leading carbon wheels and also the pacentis being more stiff than similar carbon wheels. Maybe "they" been lying about carbon being very stiff and some of the stiffest material out there

Heres the first post re: test - the post following that one is part 2 http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog...er-alloys.html

Can't argue anything feeling-wise, or whether it's even beneficial or just a feeling. Zipp/Silca Josh has tested that people can't blindly discern 10psi pressure differences just through feel, and Mavic tested that people can't blindly discern wheel stiffness (you'll have to search for those - part of the mosaic of stuff I've read/digested/believe but can't readily link).

As you and I both said, there have been problems with SL23s, and we built a few test sets of Quills and decided not to build with them. There are plenty of very good ~450g alloy clinchers (HED C2, Easton R90SL) and if you go a few grams up from that you get to HED Belgium+, Kinlin XR31T, A-Force Al33, and a whole boatload of others that are great rims.

But the thing with light carbon clinchers is you need some mass in the brake track for heat sink. High temp resin gets you some of the way there, but those resins bring with them an increase in brittleness. So even then you have to bring some of that material and weight back for resilience.

Especially when they come from not-top-tier brands, lightweight carbon clinchers just give me the extreme heebie-jeebies.They're time bombs.

As someone else said a few posts up, carbon really only has an advantage in tubulars, where they can be made very light compared to their clincher counterparts. Conversely, alloy tubulars can't really be that much lighter than clinchers.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by November Dave

Heres the first post re: test - the post following that one is part 2 http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog...er-alloys.html

Can't argue anything feeling-wise, or whether it's even beneficial or just a feeling. Zipp/Silca Josh has tested that people can't blindly discern 10psi pressure differences just through feel, and Mavic tested that people can't blindly discern wheel stiffness (you'll have to search for those - part of the mosaic of stuff I've read/digested/believe but can't readily link).

As you and I both said, there have been problems with SL23s, and we built a few test sets of Quills and decided not to build with them. There are plenty of very good ~450g alloy clinchers (HED C2, Easton R90SL) and if you go a few grams up from that you get to HED Belgium+, Kinlin XR31T, A-Force Al33, and a whole boatload of others that are great rims.

But the thing with light carbon clinchers is you need some mass in the brake track for heat sink. High temp resin gets you some of the way there, but those resins bring with them an increase in brittleness. So even then you have to bring some of that material and weight back for resilience.

Especially when they come from not-top-tier brands, lightweight carbon clinchers just give me the extreme heebie-jeebies.They're time bombs.

As someone else said a few posts up, carbon really only has an advantage in tubulars, where they can be made very light compared to their clincher counterparts. Conversely, alloy tubulars can't really be that much lighter than clinchers.

they do to me as well. My last carbon wheels delaminated. I told myself never to buy them again but found a good deal on another set and bought it, lets hope these fair better (they are newer so hopefully the brake tech is better).

Interesting data btw, thanks for testing and linking.