"Signature" dropouts vs Hooded dropouts

[sirvelo]

I recently had an interesting chat with a discerning gentleman on the topic of dropouts.

As you'd expect from someone who has had an extensive experience with various custom bikes, he had some fairly strong opinions, but what struck me the most was him regarding any builder that uses hooded (breezer) dropouts to be inferior than those using proprietary "signature" dropouts.

His point was that using third-party dropouts didn't quite make the bike "100% custom", and in his view, having a "signature" dropout was what set the so-called "master builders" (Kirk, Sachs, Serotta, Firefly, Vanilla etc etc) apart from the rest. He went on to say that, although he's had a few Pegorettis, he never regarded Dario to be in the same leagues as Kirk or Sachs for this reason.

I think his point is valid to some extent, and of course there is an increasing number of brands now using signature dropouts thanks to 3D printing (No 22, Breadwinner, Stinner, Moots etc).

But I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the builders who don't have a signature dropout to be inferior, especially when there are so many reputable builders such as Baum, English, Mosaic and Bingham using hooded (or variants of it) dropouts.

So - is having a signature that an important and meaningful standard that sets builders apart, or is this another look-at-me-I-know-more-than-you custom bike wankery?

[EB]

The latter.

[Talrand]

I'd never buy a frame from a builder who doesn't mine his own ore.

It's really hard to believe someone who spent tens of thousands of dollars on custom frames might be a teensy bit of an elitist snob.

[prototoast]

Pegoretti does use their own dropout design.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by Talrand

I'd never buy a frame from a builder who doesn't mine his own ore.

THAT was funny!

[StressStrain]

Hooded or Breezer style dropouts are fantastic from a strength and stiffness perspective.

On the other hand, a lot of these 'signature' dropouts are different just for the sake of difference. I guess in this respect they perfectly meet the needs of the kind of bike snob you talked to.

[NHAero]

OK, I just tossed my Bingham in the dumpster.
Could someone provide a list of builders who have signature dropouts?

[Nomadmax]

I feel the same way as the guy in the OP, but it isn't about dropouts. I'd never put a builder in the same class as one who makes the frame AND the fork. Building the frame and throwing on an outsourced carbon fork is a big no for me.

[herb5998]

@OP, was this discerning gentleman a builder?

As eRichie likes to say, the frame is the frame. There are many styles and types of dropouts, and each builder has their reasoning for using specific types. Hooded dropouts, especially when dealing with oversize chain stays provide large surface area for the welds, and no need for tube manipulation which can weaken the structure. If you look at a Pegoretti Marcelo/Round or some of the 1" oversize chain stays on a Bingham/Eriksen, you'll see great examples of applications where a hooded dropout works really well.

For Ti builders, having a hooded dropout also provides a platform to back-purge the weld.

[unterhausen]

I have thought about making my own dropouts, but there are lots of nice dropouts on offer. I have seen people make do with dropouts where they should have done something else. I try not to do that. But most front dropouts are made for a particular style of fork, and I want to build some that aren't really that style.

Originally Posted by Nomadmax

Building the frame and throwing on an outsourced carbon fork is a big no for me.

I never really thought about buying a fork until they started selling tapered head tubes. And now Alex Meade has head lugs for tapered headtubes, so I'm pretty sure that for me, buying a fork is inevitable. Never seen a tapered steel fork that looks right to me, and I try not to build things that don't look right.

Of course, my frames are built for an exclusive and exceptionally tasteful clientele: me. So I'm not really concerned about what the hoi polloi thinks.

[EB]

I can’t see any good reason for a tapered steerer on a steel fork. Given the properties of the material, just seems like it will make the fork unnecessarily stiff and heavy.

Even the reasons for doing it with carbon forks on road bikes are pretty tenuous but that’s a separate discussion.

[72gmc]

I have stainless dropouts, Ritchey if memory serves, on my Davidson. And lugs from some e-Richie guy! Freely offered by Bill as part of his consideration for what I was going to do with the frame, e.g., ride it all the time in all conditions. I’ve never thought of them as an anything other than a positive attribute.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by EB

I can’t see any good reason for a tapered steerer on a steel fork. Given the properties of the material, just seems like it will make the fork unnecessarily stiff and heavy.

Even the reasons for doing it with carbon forks on road bikes are pretty tenuous but that’s a separate discussion.

In my opinion, steel disc brake forks should be heavy, I refuse to live on the edge. But as far as tapered head tubes and carbon forks on steel bikes, sometimes I do things for amusement, that should be understood on a forum where N+1 is the rule. I like the way tapered headtubes look, no accounting for taste.

As far as tapered carbon forks on a steel bike, there are far better choices of forks with tapered steerers. Sometimes you have to compromise because of the state of the market. It's backwards, I know. But putting a tapered head tube on a steel frame adds almost no weight nowadays and has no other compromises. Granted, it does tend to make a carbon fork the only choice that makes sense.

[EB]

Originally Posted by unterhausen

In my opinion, steel disc brake forks should be heavy, I refuse to live on the edge. But as far as tapered head tubes and carbon forks on steel bikes, sometimes I do things for amusement, that should be understood on a forum where N+1 is the rule. I like the way tapered headtubes look, no accounting for taste.

As far as tapered carbon forks on a steel bike, there are far better choices of forks with tapered steerers. Sometimes you have to compromise because of the state of the market. It's backwards, I know. But putting a tapered head tube on a steel frame adds almost no weight nowadays and has no other compromises. Granted, it does tend to make a carbon fork the only choice that makes sense.

Right, I mean, if I bought a steel road frame intending to run a carbon fork on it, I'd probably look for one with a 44mm or tapered head tube to accommodate a wide range of forks.

But that's just conceding to the reality of the market - aesthetically, I prefer 1 1/8" (or even 1") head tubes, and functionally I'm really not convinced the tapered carbon steerer has a benefit to the rider (though there may be reasons why it makes carbon fork construction easier).

As for steel forks, there's just no need for a steel fork to have a tapered steerer, even with the added weight and stiffness needed for disc brakes. There are non-suspension corrected bike-packing rigs with disc brakes and steel mountain bike forks that have straight 1 1/8" steerers and they handle things like the Tour Divide. Even if the head tube is tapered as a concession to carbon forks or suspension forks, the steel fork can have a straight steerer.

[Gabe77]

The original reason for the traditional dropouts was the way they were assembled - by slotting in and brazing. TIG assembly takes geometry out of the equation and its just an aesthetic thing like straight vs curved forks and seatstays. Strictly speaking trad dropouts are superior since they will always be lighter, although hooded gives more welding surface to work on. In actual racing I'd say that trad is much easier to execute a fast wheel change on - although the industry has pretty much given up on that with axles.
As for the tapered headtubes this is purely from a manufacturing objective of lowering mass while preserving stiffness. The only reason metal steering tubes followed was to fit into such headtubes. I'm seeing anecdotally lots of riders casting away the obsession with stiffness and starting to value springiness again. That's a good thing.