OT: VW cheating emissions on TDI vehicles

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by palincss

While all that is true, it's possible to get great reliability and excellent fuel economy and will fit a bike inside just fine and still have a car that is utterly joyless to drive. Take my wife's Prius V, for example. "Appliance" is the only way to describe it, and operating it is as much fun as running a dishwasher.

With the ever increasing traffic density in virtually all urban/suburban geographies, I believe that this is the unavoidable future for any driver. Doesn't matter what is being driven, all of every vehicle from supercar to jalopy will never see the thrill of being used to any manner as car culture would make such a fantasy in driving an open road. There aren't any open roads left.

Forget the absurdity of drivers behind BMW M-cars and Mercedes AMGs that wouldn't know the first thing about how to drive a car anywhere near the limit - they don't have to know, they just have to feel good about themselves that they think they know how. Besides, the auto-stability, anti-lock, anti-spin computer in these cars can't be fully overridden anyway. Performance car? Pssft! Whatta crock.

I like cars. Owning a M or AMG or GT3 makes sense to me because I like the car & the technology that makes it go. I despise car culture because I don't like the lies that a performance car is usable as a car. As a token of consumerism sure but It will never have the opportunity to use its capability, least of all safely on an ever crowed public roadway. C'mon, how many drivers sign up and participate in track days? There's a learning curve for that too.

Appliance sounds about right.

[eddief]

go good, go fast, go comfortable, handle good, go with bike, go with automatic, go 29.5 mpg. Not a Prius.

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

With the ever increasing traffic density in virtually all urban/suburban geographies, I believe that this is the unavoidable future for any driver. Doesn't matter what is being driven, all of every vehicle from supercar to jalopy will never see the thrill of being used to any manner as car culture would make such a fantasy in driving an open road. There aren't any open roads left.

Forget the absurdity of drivers behind BMW M-cars and Mercedes AMGs that wouldn't know the first thing about how to drive a car anywhere near the limit - they don't have to know, they just have to feel good about themselves that they think they know how. Besides, the auto-stability, anti-lock, anti-spin computer in these cars can't be fully overridden anyway. Performance car? Pssft! Whatta crock.

I like cars. Owning a M or AMG or GT3 makes sense to me because I like the car & the technology that makes it go. I despise car culture because I don't like the lies that a performance car is usable as a car. As a token of consumerism sure but It will never have the opportunity to use its capability, least of all safely on an ever crowed public roadway. C'mon, how many drivers sign up and participate in track days? There's a learning curve for that too.

Appliance sounds about right.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

With the ever increasing traffic density in virtually all urban/suburban geographies, I believe that this is the unavoidable future for any driver. Doesn't matter what is being driven, all of every vehicle from supercar to jalopy will never see the thrill of being used to any manner as car culture would make such a fantasy in driving an open road. There aren't any open roads left.

I'm not talking about driving 10 tenths, or even 6 tenths. I'm talking about a car having the same sense of communication between the driver and the road that we enjoy riding bicycles, about a feeling of direct connection. You don't need to be driving at "reckless driving" speeds to get that.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by eddief

go good, go fast, go comfortable, handle good, go with bike, go with automatic, go 29.5 mpg. Not a Prius.

I've driven one, and I agree, definitely not like a Prius. But I'd rather have a DSG, personally, because its management of engine braking is exactly how I'd manage it myself if it were a manual. And thanks to VW's packaging of components and options, that means a 4-Motion model; and although I loathe, despise and abominate the whole "butched up, lifted, fake SUV" thing the only way I can get the interior I want, the sunroof and and the better sounding radio is in the Alltrack.

And 4-Motion should eliminate the one thing I don't particularly like about my JSW. I find it far too easy to get wheelspin making the 90 degree right turn onto the busy road from the stop sign on the hill a couple of blocks from where I live. I must have made that turn thousands of times over the 10 years I had my Saab 900 and hardly ever got wheelspin with that car, so it's not just that it's FWD.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by palincss

I'm not talking about driving 10 tenths, or even 6 tenths. I'm talking about a car having the same sense of communication between the driver and the road that we enjoy riding bicycles, about a feeling of direct connection. You don't need to be driving at "reckless driving" speeds to get that.

You are right and I have no disagreement here. A driver can feel good feedback and feel through the steering rack and suspension at <25mph speeds on local streets and the occasional <60mph burst on the Beltway! But that is a sad state to be in for a performance car that for the vast majority of M's and AMG's sold and on the road, that's all the part of the performance envelope the car will ever use and that the driver will ever see.

When I drove on the street, I took every available thrill I could get: highway on & off ramps, cloverleafs, open 90* bends on greenlight turning arrows. Anywhere it was safe to take a spirited run, not for top speed (driving straight at 140mph is not much thrill on a track) but for the skill sequence involved with corner entry or corner exit. On the street. Everything, every time for every chance I got. But the traffic density over time gradually ramped up so that what fun might avail itself 10% of the time eventually became 1% of the time.

My theory for why BMW steering feel has gotten worse and worse over time is both the fact BMW sells into a larger market where the image of a Bimmer is more important than the driving of one. And the fact that traffic densities everywhere have increased so it makes economic sense to not overengineer a car for feedback on speeds it rarely sees. How many drivers will know or care about what the feedback & feel is like on a braking and turn-in while trail-braking into corner entry? This can be done at street speeds so I'm not talkin' reckless driving. But this is a driver skill that most modern day drivers don't know and don't care about.

What does this have to do with VW scandal? Nuthin'. Except some choose to buy VWs to get a German-sport driving experience and I think that enjoying that is getting harder and harder to do.

[shovelhd]

I think it's been a while since you've compared a GTI to a Mazda 3. Both are great cars that are not appliances, but the GTI is distinctly German.

VWOA's packaging is maddening, isn't it? Last year you could get a base level GTI with lighting. This year it's Sport and higher, which means my 16" snows won't fit. The GSW 4-motion can only get lighting in the top package, and only with tech junk I don't want. Same with the Alltrack.

[eddief]

In my GSW I almost never use the paddles. Think they'd come in handy when going down something steep and curvy. But have been inclined to shift it into sport mode for uptick to slightly more performance and response feel. In sport mode the thing goes really good...and interested to know how dsg compares. Gotta say in mostly in-town and normal freeway driving which is all I do, the auto seems quite fine. I don't have a place where I do 90 degree turns quickly and get wheel spin .

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I think it's been a while since you've compared a GTI to a Mazda 3. Both are great cars that are not appliances, but the GTI is distinctly German.

VWOA's packaging is maddening, isn't it? Last year you could get a base level GTI with lighting. This year it's Sport and higher, which means my 16" snows won't fit. The GSW 4-motion can only get lighting in the top package, and only with tech junk I don't want. Same with the Alltrack.

[carpediemracing]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

When I drove on the street, I took every available thrill I could get: highway on & off ramps, cloverleafs, open 90* bends on greenlight turning arrows. Anywhere it was safe to take a spirited run, not for top speed (driving straight at 140mph is not much thrill on a track) but for the skill sequence involved with corner entry or corner exit. On the street. Everything, every time for every chance I got.

This is me.

One thing that is interesting is that I found my 1992 Civic VX (92 HP brand new, probably 70 HP when it had 286k miles on it) really enjoyable to drive, the 350Z (realistically 280 HP) less so. The problem was that the Z allowed me to "correct" mistakes simply by flooring it. That's an oversimplification but basically the car had enough power to do whatever. The Civic was a momentum car, it really didn't like it when I disrupted its smooth flow. Otherwise I'd find myself in 3rd gear on the highway, trying to get the car to accelerate past 45 mph. This would happen if I slowed to below a cusp, about 45 mph, like if I didn't foresee traffic slowing and I had to slow more than optimal, or if I slowed too late so I wasn't accelerating as traffic started to move.

A couple months ago I drove a friend's new M4. It was way more than I could handle, that's for sure. 490 HP, totally sick. I probably tapped 300-350 HP of that car, nowhere near the meat of the car's abilities, and that was enough for me.

For me being able to heel-toe while diving into a corner is where it's at. Or even pulling into a parking spot, being able to blip and shift into 1st gear to creep into a spot, all while lightly on the brake.

[shovelhd]

My docs were FINALLY approved. On to the approval stage. I would have been here weeks ago if the portal notified me.

Being able to shift makes winter driving a lot safer, at least for me. If I go with a DSG at least that transmission was designed to do it.

[znfdl]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

My docs were FINALLY approved. On to the approval stage. I would have been here weeks ago if the portal notified me.

Being able to shift makes winter driving a lot safer, at least for me. If I go with a DSG at least that transmission was designed to do it.

I ordered an Alltrack SE with the 6MT, which will be ready in February.

[notsew]

I had a 505 diesel that was a similar experience, it was super fun to drive because you had to drive it smart. It felt like driving a rally car to me. I might miss that car the most.

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

This is me.

One thing that is interesting is that I found my 1992 Civic VX (92 HP brand new, probably 70 HP when it had 286k miles on it) really enjoyable to drive, the 350Z (realistically 280 HP) less so. The problem was that the Z allowed me to "correct" mistakes simply by flooring it. That's an oversimplification but basically the car had enough power to do whatever. The Civic was a momentum car, it really didn't like it when I disrupted its smooth flow. Otherwise I'd find myself in 3rd gear on the highway, trying to get the car to accelerate past 45 mph. This would happen if I slowed to below a cusp, about 45 mph, like if I didn't foresee traffic slowing and I had to slow more than optimal, or if I slowed too late so I wasn't accelerating as traffic started to move.

A couple months ago I drove a friend's new M4. It was way more than I could handle, that's for sure. 490 HP, totally sick. I probably tapped 300-350 HP of that car, nowhere near the meat of the car's abilities, and that was enough for me.

For me being able to heel-toe while diving into a corner is where it's at. Or even pulling into a parking spot, being able to blip and shift into 1st gear to creep into a spot, all while lightly on the brake.

[bcroslin]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

With the ever increasing traffic density in virtually all urban/suburban geographies, I believe that this is the unavoidable future for any driver. Doesn't matter what is being driven, all of every vehicle from supercar to jalopy will never see the thrill of being used to any manner as car culture would make such a fantasy in driving an open road. There aren't any open roads left.

Forget the absurdity of drivers behind BMW M-cars and Mercedes AMGs that wouldn't know the first thing about how to drive a car anywhere near the limit - they don't have to know, they just have to feel good about themselves that they think they know how. Besides, the auto-stability, anti-lock, anti-spin computer in these cars can't be fully overridden anyway. Performance car? Pssft! Whatta crock.

I like cars. Owning a M or AMG or GT3 makes sense to me because I like the car & the technology that makes it go. I despise car culture because I don't like the lies that a performance car is usable as a car. As a token of consumerism sure but It will never have the opportunity to use its capability, least of all safely on an ever crowed public roadway. C'mon, how many drivers sign up and participate in track days? There's a learning curve for that too.

Appliance sounds about right.

I'm over car culture. I'll be happy when the roads are full of boring driverless cars. But I also drive a Honda element so the car-excitement part of my brain was turned off a long time ago.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

You are right and I have no disagreement here. A driver can feel good feedback and feel through the steering rack and suspension at <25mph speeds on local streets and the occasional <60mph burst on the Beltway! But that is a sad state to be in for a performance car that for the vast majority of M's and AMG's sold and on the road, that's all the part of the performance envelope the car will ever use and that the driver will ever see.

You don't need to go so far as Ms and AMGs. Go to Potomac and look at the old people pootling around in their Mercs and BMWs. I was stationed in Germany for a couple of years in the 1960s and I can tell you what those cars were designed for - running all day on the autobahn at over 100 mph - and driving them like a boulevard cruiser doesn't get at 5% of the performance they're built for.

But I do wonder about your "occasional <60 mph burst on the Beltway" - maybe where you are on the Great Circle (Georgia Ave?) things go that slow, but where I am you'd better be doing over 70 if you want to ride in the left lane, and heading south from the Beltway on Rt 4 or Rt 5 you could add another 5-10 mph to that.

[Cat3roadracer]

Just got off the phone with the claims people. Today is the 10th business day since my docs were approved. The representative said I would receive offer notification within three business days from tomorrow.

Funny.

[DHallerman]

Originally Posted by Cat3roadracer

Just got off the phone with the claims people. Today is the 10th business day since my docs were approved. The representative said I would receive offer notification within three business days from tomorrow.

Funny.

Exactly. Funny.

My docs were approved on October 20th. No word since. Perhaps I need to call them too, tomorrow.