Jumping from Steel to Carbon? Advice needed

[froze]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

Interestingly, I have exactly the opposite experience: It feels to me like most carbon frames mute the small vibrations far better than steel (haven't ridden enough Ti to have an opinion). Whereas steel to me has an electric buzz when riding over slightly course chipseal, carbon mutes those microvibrations to the point of either (best case) feeling like you're floating on air, hovering an inch above the pavement, or (worst case) feeling so muted as to be dead.

It's the big bumps where I feel carbon loses its ability to mute vibrations. That's where I feel steel does its springy, vibration-absorbing thing; and that's where carbon tends to go SPLAT.

But I think our divergent experiences may just be an indication of how ascribing any qualities to the materials independent of design/execution is missing the point.


To the OP: I would love a sub-15lb bike...because I have to lift my bikes up high to hang them on the wall when I put them away. But when I'm riding them? even when climbing I just don't notice the ~2lb difference in weight between my carbon bike and my steel bike.

I have to agree with you, all the CF bikes I rode seemed to mute small imperfections on the road better than ST and AL, but about the same as TI but not sure if that's due to the CF fork. It's that muting effect that gives CF a dead feeling, or as some explain a disconnect feeling from the road to the rider. However when you hit larger imperfections then the CF frame will jolt you whereas with ST and more with TI that it's more subdued without the bang. Keep in mind when I say mutes small imperfection I mean it's still there but just not as pronounced. AL is bad at all things in my opinion.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Duende

Lots of good advice here. Personally I think the used 585 route is a no brainer. I hope to pick up one myself someday. I rent carbon bikes when I go on trips sometimes. Have had great rides on specialized and treks.. nothing too exotic, but great light stiff nice handling bikes that were fun to try out.

Fwiw, steel can be very light too these days. My s3 Waterford is 16.1 pounds and I wasn't even really trying to cut weight. With a red group it could easily get to 15.

Let's us know how it goes when you figure it out.

Do you have pictures of your Waterford?
Thanks

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Just FYI from a Felt fan and owner, the F1 PR geometry is completely different than the F1 geometry, which is their non-aero road race frame and the equivalent to my Fc. The F1 PR has slack head and seat tubes, a longer top tube, chainstays, you get the picture. It's a stretched out, laid back comfort frame, not a road race frame. The R3 should be compared to the F1.

Yah, I get you. A half a degree here, a degree there, a few millimeters here, a centimeter there... it adds up to a very different bike. I'm not unhappy with it, but it's not in the same category. Don't get me wrong: it's a great bike, and I'm still happy I was able to snag one of the frames, but I'm in the middle of adjusting my expectations about it relative to the R3.

It's just that those are the only two carbon bikes I've owned, so they're my only reference points. That's why I'm saying we shouldn't generalize about the material.

[Lionel]

In this day and age carbon is where it's at. Even though there is nothing wrong with having bikes made with other materials.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by froze

If you have the money to burn on a light weight steel bike, Rodriguez makes a bike called the Outlaw (Red Lite) which is lighter than most CF bikes on the market, with SRAM Red weighs only 13.5 pounds, but it will also lighten your wallet by $10,999. The interesting thing is that there are no reports on the internet about these frames failing and this bike has been around for awhile.

It is worth looking at their build spec though and some of his ramblings about weight and parts...he rightly points out that a carbon bike can be heavier than steel pretty easily. I'd expect one would be able to build to a similar weight, maybe +/- a lb, with a used modern steel frame and carbon fork for under $2,500. WeightWeenie forums have plenty of ideas here.


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[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

I'm really interested in learning how geometry impacts ride characteristics for me specifically in order to narrow in on what I want to have built as my modern steel "go fast" bike. I consider everything in my stable, including my 'Guch, to be in the service of that... And I may try some carbon again on the way there (I've had some nice ones already, but none that really sang to me on the road as much as on the rack and through the lens). If I do, it'll be of the lugged or hand-laid variety...I can't unsee what I've already seen of monocoque construction issues under mass-production conditions. I don't really even want to ride a carbon fork other than an Ouzo, F1, or Alpha Q, which I've told myself are safe...


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Seems I said Beetlejuice three times here and a Look 585 showed up in the classifieds in my size - guess I'll be scratching that itch sooner than I thought!


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[mtechnica]

I used to ride steel bikes and have recently switched to carbon, and will never go back. My carbon bikes are much more comfortable over poor road surfaces, more efficient up climbs, and lighter.

[Duende]

Originally Posted by Tony

Do you have pictures of your Waterford?
Thanks

Here ya go!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showth...23#post2161323

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Yah, I get you. A half a degree here, a degree there, a few millimeters here, a centimeter there... it adds up to a very different bike. I'm not unhappy with it, but it's not in the same category. Don't get me wrong: it's a great bike, and I'm still happy I was able to snag one of the frames, but I'm in the middle of adjusting my expectations about it relative to the R3.

It's just that those are the only two carbon bikes I've owned, so they're my only reference points. That's why I'm saying we shouldn't generalize about the material.

Agreed. You mentioned that you are working out the fit. Try this. Drop the saddle about 1cm and move it forward about the same. This will put you more on the hoods and provide more input to the steering. 1cm may be way too much, you'll have to experiment. It's how I set up my CX bike for a road position.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Duende

Here ya go!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showth...23#post2161323

Great looking bike! Thanks for sharing. Always interested in light steal bike builds. Got my Serotta CIII down to 16.40.

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

Agreed. You mentioned that you are working out the fit. Try this. Drop the saddle about 1cm and move it forward about the same. This will put you more on the hoods and provide more input to the steering. 1cm may be way too much, you'll have to experiment. It's how I set up my CX bike for a road position.

That seems odd/interesting to me. I'm running the same crank length, and set up the same saddle height (up/down) and position (fore/aft) relative to the bottom bracket as the older Ti LeMond. Why go forwards and lower?

I know I want to try a longer stem -- going from 11cm to 12cm certainly helped, and the bars are (visually) a little behind the front hub on the Felt, while they're a good 1cm in front on the LeMond.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

That seems odd/interesting to me. I'm running the same crank length, and set up the same saddle height (up/down) and position (fore/aft) relative to the bottom bracket as the older Ti LeMond. Why go forwards and lower?

I know I want to try a longer stem -- going from 11cm to 12cm certainly helped, and the bars are (visually) a little behind the front hub on the Felt, while they're a good 1cm in front on the LeMond.

I should also mention that I ride a 120mm -17* on the Felt and a 130mm -17* stem on the CX bike. Why go forwards and lower? Because it puts your center of gravity forward, which negates some of the slow response of the relaxed geometry. Try it. It's easy to undo.

[fogrider]

some people don't appreciate a great riding steel bike. I've had a few over the years, but a few years ago, I picked up a Ron Cooper. the guy said he was the original owner but he converted it to a fix-gear. I stripped it down and the frame alone was 4.6 pounds. I was not too enthusiastic about building up a frame that weighed that much, but 9 months later, it was ready for a lunch time ride. I needed a new fork, but mostly stuff I had in the used parts bin.

Well, it didn't take more than a block before I knew I was riding something special. I had downtube shifters and old tubulars on it, and it was just a joy to ride. the thing was likely more than 20 pounds. After about 8 months, I had it repainted and rebuilt with carbon tubular wheels, Campy Record and other carbon bits, it comes in about 18 and a half pounds.

My bulletproof bike is Serotta Legend Ti, great fit and handling. I've ridden a few carbon bikes over the years, but when I need a 15-pound weapon, I go with my Time VXSR. Most carbon bikes mute the road feel, but not the Time. But my best handling bike is a scandium Rock Lobster. Paul Saddoff really knows how to build a bike to go fast, which I keep a work for lunch time rides. So that just leaves aluminum, which is another Rock Lobster, my most fun bike.

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I should also mention that I ride a 120mm -17* on the Felt and a 130mm -17* stem on the CX bike. Why go forwards and lower? Because it puts your center of gravity forward, which negates some of the slow response of the relaxed geometry. Try it. It's easy to undo.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Duende]

Originally Posted by Tony

Great looking bike! Thanks for sharing. Always interested in light steal bike builds. Got my Serotta CIII down to 16.40.

Thanks! I have to admit though. I do feel silly ranting about the benefits of steel when all the parts on my bike are pretty much carbon. So I don't do that anymore.