OT: iphone factory life....

[alterergo]

Originally Posted by summilux

By way of comparison...

I like your name, still miss my b&w days

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

In some ways this is the only argument that makes sense, in other ways it is a hopeless plan.

If you have a standard of living that demands higher wages and you are competing with other labor markets that have a much lower standard, you have two options, not trade with them (or at least not free trade with them) or figure out a way to employ your people with higher value added work (idea based, creative, technology, etc.), whatever the market deems higher value (which is a moving target).

unfortunately,

A lot of this labor is highly valued because the attributes that are required for a person to be good at it are rare among the population. Certainly a better education system would turn out many more tech skilled/knowledge economy participants, but there is a limit.

for example, saying something like "If everyone would just design something amazing or make new computer programs that are disruptive and revolutionary we would have no employment problems" is silly because not everyone can be a successful inventor/programmer/scientist etc. These jobs are valued and paid well because they are rare talents. If everyone could do them they would be low paying jobs.

I don't see it quite so black and white. For example, Bill Gates was an innovator extraordinaire. His innovative talents carried many, many, many others to prosperity too. We all don't have to be a Bill Gates to enjoy success from something a "Bill Gates" innovator develops. The coat tails of innovation are very wide and inclusive. I expect there are numerous profitable, high paying, non-innovative businesses that exist in Seattle, solely because of Bill Gates and the coat tails of MS.

Manual, factory labor is darn close to being a commodity. The US can't compete, nor should it. It will always go to the lowest cost provider. Otoh, the US and a few other countries, presently have the edge in innovation. This is where real economic value lies and where we should focus our resources. Bringing factory jobs back from Mexico makes great headlines, but won't add sustainable value to our economy. Innovation can create prosperity even for those who aren't directly doing the "innovating".

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by mistermo

I don't see it quite so black and white. For example, Bill Gates was an innovator extraordinaire.

Yep, stole what he couldn't buy, wonderful innovator, QDOS 0.11/86-DOS!

[bicycletricycle]

yes, that is all true and well stated.

I wonder if a society can lean that hard on "innovation" (persistent invention of huge new industries) for employment. Seems unlikely to me.


Especially in a place with such a crap education system.

Originally Posted by mistermo

I don't see it quite so black and white. For example, Bill Gates was an innovator extraordinaire. His innovative talents carried many, many, many others to prosperity too. We all don't have to be a Bill Gates to enjoy success from something a "Bill Gates" innovator develops. The coat tails of innovation are very wide and inclusive. I expect there are numerous profitable, high paying, non-innovative businesses that exist in Seattle, solely because of Bill Gates and the coat tails of MS.

Manual, factory labor is darn close to being a commodity. The US can't compete, nor should it. It will always go to the lowest cost provider. Otoh, the US and a few other countries, presently have the edge in innovation. This is where real economic value lies and where we should focus our resources. Bringing factory jobs back from Mexico makes great headlines, but won't add sustainable value to our economy. Innovation can create prosperity even for those who aren't directly doing the "innovating".

[Anarchist]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Very interesting because if we get those phones produced in the US, they could cost like 5000 bucks each hehehe... not an apple fan myself, they figure it out how to sell you useless stuff and feel great about it

http://www.businessinsider.com/man-s...as-like-2017-4

I am wondering how you think that is any different than what Nokia, Samsung, Hauwei, LG or any other electronics maker does?

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

Especially in a place with such a crap education system.

I worry about this too. And our ever-growing sense of entitlement, or laziness. I work a lot with suppliers overseas and their work ethic, it seems to me, is far stronger than the average American I see. Maybe it's bad sampling on my part, but gives me concern. However, I don't think we should undervalue our cultural role in innovation. From the time we're kids, we're taught to be individuals, and think differently. Many other cultures value uniformity and conformity. We don't.

I saw a program years ago where they went to a US Kindergarten. The kids' assignment was to draw a family and a house. Every kid went to work and at the end, no kid's drawing looked alike. They gave the same assignment to a Japanese Kindergarten. Before any kid lifted a crayon, the entire room discussed, then agreed to what the final picture would look like. In the end, there were twenty, nearly identical drawings. Such is the role of culture. While our education system may be crap, we still promote diversity and innovative behavior more than most other countries.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by mistermo

I don't see it quite so black and white. For example, Bill Gates was an innovator extraordinaire.

Bill was more of an imitator extraordinaire.

[alterergo]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

yes, that is all true and well stated.

I wonder if a society can lean that hard on "innovation" (persistent invention of huge new industries) for employment. Seems unlikely to me.

and yet this has been how most advanced economies, like the US grew over time.

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

Especially in a place with such a crap education system.

That is the key. Fixing that will bring far more jobs into the US then trade barriers or "renegotiation" of trade deals.

[alterergo]

Originally Posted by Tony T

Bill was more of an imitator extraordinaire.

Sometimes, brilliance is recognizing true potential of innovation, perfecting it and taking risks to bring it to market.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by mistermo

I worry about this too. And our ever-growing sense of entitlement, or laziness. I work a lot with suppliers overseas and their work ethic, it seems to me, is far stronger than the average American I see. Maybe it's bad sampling on my part, but gives me concern. However, I don't think we should undervalue our cultural role in innovation. From the time we're kids, we're taught to be individuals, and think differently. Many other cultures value uniformity and conformity. We don't.

Culture is no substitute for the cold, hard rudiments of educational capability. Among OECD developed nations, the US is much down the rankings list in reading math and science while simultaneously spending more per student in achieving this substandard result.

Do not take comfort in this false, feel-good view about cultural superiority. It is grasping at straws to find some attribute to make a false readout that innate qualities of American culture make us more competitive. When in fact what makes America more competitive are the result of our democratic institutions, rule of law, free flow of investment capital and a host of other supportive institutions that in total embody the American approach which foster and engender innovation.

I saw a program years ago where they went to a US Kindergarten. The kids' assignment was to draw a family and a house. Every kid went to work and at the end, no kid's drawing looked alike. They gave the same assignment to a Japanese Kindergarten. Before any kid lifted a crayon, the entire room discussed, then agreed to what the final picture would look like. In the end, there were twenty, nearly identical drawings. Such is the role of culture. While our education system may be crap, we still promote diversity and innovative behavior more than most other countries.

Yes agree that USA public K-12 education is crap. No amount of cultural inculcation towards innovative behaviour, whatever that is, will save the day. The danger in this thought process is it underlies a false hope in gifted genius in the American workforce and homegrown American intellectual capital to drive and maintain our nation's competitive advantage. Ain't gonna happen. Because on the whole, America is pretty stupid. Johnny can't read, for starters.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by alterergo

Sometimes, brilliance is recognizing true potential of innovation, perfecting it and taking risks to bring it to market.

That is true, however, Bill Gates and Microsoft never did that.
Honestly, I believe Bill Gates personally held back personal computing for a decade.

Micro-Soft was formed to develop and sell BASIC interpreters for the Altair.
It later fell ass-backwards into a sweetheart deal with IBM when Gary Kildall blew-off IBM when they came knocking on his door to discuss buying a CP/M variant for the IBM PC (interestingly, it was Gates that recommended Kildall to IBM) IBM then went back to Gates, who then purchased QDOS from Seattle Computer Products (as Micro-Soft did not have an OS to sell, and could not build one in the IBM time requirements). Keep in mind that the "QD" in DOS stands for Quick and Dirty. How did IBM know of Gates? AFAIK, Bill's Mom had some connection to IBM and she steered them to her son

The licensing deal Gates made with IBM effectively shut out any competing operating system at that time.

Microsoft would spend the 80's and 90's protecting their monopoly with IBM. They had no incentive to build a better OS, so they didn't.
Even the earlier versions of Windows was build with DOS as it's underlying OS (the same as how OS X is built on Unix).
PC Users of the 80's and 90's suffered at the Microsoft monopoly.

Microsoft plays defense — Excel was developed after Visicalc and Lotus 123, Word after Wordperfect, Windows after Apple. And even with the Internet, they did not at first embrace it, they fought it as they saw it as a threat to Office.

A good read of the start of the PC industry:

Accidental Empires: How the Boys of Silicon Valley Make Their Millions, Battle Foreign Competition, and Still Can't Get a Date
(used a the basis of a 1996 PBS Documentary: Triumph of the Nerds)

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

Culture is no substitute for the cold, hard rudiments of educational capability. Among OECD developed nations, the US is much down the rankings list in reading math and science while simultaneously spending more per student in achieving this substandard result.

Do not take comfort in this false, feel-good view about cultural superiority.

Please don't misread my comment. Our education system, is failing us. No argument there. I lay much of the blame for this on our culture, and sense of entitlement. That's another story.

I work in biotech. Nearly all of our scientists are Asian. They come to the US because our culture, our environment, is still tops in the world at innovation. They can accomplish here, what they can't accomplish there. Without these foreign workers, I wouldn't have a job. I need them, they need me. If we veto their visas, and send them home, the US loses.

Yes, it's a pity US workers in this area aren't as plentiful. But the US is still the innovation king across the world. From a young age, we are taught to be competitive in ways that we, as Americans, don't even recognize. Our culture is steeped in competition and individualism. These, in my view, do not excuse poor education, or laziness, but are compensating for it. For now.

I didn't like Ayn Rand's book, Atlas Shrugged, but it touches upon the value of, and coat tail effect of innovators.

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by mistermo

Please don't misread my comment. Our education system, is failing us. No argument there. I lay much of the blame for this on our culture, and sense of entitlement. That's another story.

I work in biotech. Nearly all of our scientists are Asian. They come to the US because our culture, our environment, is still tops in the world at innovation. They can accomplish here, what they can't accomplish there. Without these foreign workers, I wouldn't have a job. I need them, they need me. If we veto their visas, and send them home, the US loses.

Yes, it's a pity US workers in this area aren't as plentiful. But the US is still the innovation king across the world. From a young age, we are taught to be competitive in ways that we, as Americans, don't even recognize. Our culture is steeped in competition and individualism. These, in my view, do not excuse poor education, or laziness, but are compensating for it. For now.

I didn't like Ayn Rand's book, Atlas Shrugged, but it touches upon the value of, and coat tail effect of innovators.

I didn't misread your comment, I addressed it succinctly. This is a friendly discussion on this topic so I find your ad hominem response admonishing about me misreading your reply as cheap and unnecessary and frankly, a poor rebuttal.

Here's the problem with your stance that culture is a key component of US competitiveness: culture is a touchy-feely, indistinct term that can mean too many things to whatever somebody wants it to be. Any government, corporation or business cannot be managed & run on ambiguous, touchy-feely something-or-other as something to work with as either in calling culture a guiding principle or as claiming culture as competitive asset. What you are proposing as a keystone of American competitiveness in the form of culture is something no one can readily define and that no one can put to use.

What is mandatory is a structure and policy that reflects implementation of means and methods to achieve an objective of economic opportunity and growth. Doing this will require the business structure to be formalized by public policies supported and enforceable by laws. Such as: tax treatment of investment, definition and treatment of capital gains, H1B visa provisions & immigration laws, intellectual property rights and enforcement of same, systems of capital formation, workforce skillset reading comprehension at 12th grade levels and greater, etc etc etc.

Please don't read my response as a tempestuous one, we're just talkin' here. Maybe you're on to something I just don't see - to me it sounds like denial which is a way to keep kickin' the can down the road.. 'Cos if you're right, then you might explain how anybody could act on your approach and what to do next.

Nice talkin' with you.

[bicycletricycle]

With no manufacturing base? Seems like the arc is.

Country is pour with can do attitude
Country makes **** happen and makes money
Country gets used to making money and rejects low paying work
Country runs out of money and falls off cliff because the base of their economy was removed because everyone thought they were too good for grunt work.

[QUOTE=alterergo;2161493]and yet this has been how most advanced economies, like the US grew over time.

[bicycletricycle]

Also, for anyone who thinks that the American attitude to take on risky new ventures is part of our magical innovation future, watch out.

In my experience Chinese businesses are much more likely to adopt a risky strategy.

Manufacturers here are like 1/2 speed with all the CYA paperwork and contracts and guarantees before you can get started. Europe is even worse because they are farther down the fully developed 1st world nation arc.

I have a client that has a large international manufacturing business. Recently we helped them develop a product for the US wing that everyone wanted in the European division but was unwilling to risk cash on. By the time we finished with all the red tape and triplicate forms and recreational meetings that are required to get it jammed through their sourcing division the Chinese wing of the company had already knocked it off and was selling units to customers.

The willingness to take on risk and do things quickly without triple checking every box in the manual is a huge advantage.