OT: '05-'08 Subaru Outback

[classtimesailer]

What CMBicycles said.
Make sure the one you buy has already had the gasket done and by an independent with the multilayer gasket.

[benb]

The other issue is the head gaskets on these flat-4/flat-6 engines are in a vertical position instead of a horizontal position.. oil drains onto them when the engine is turned off while the car is parked. Different situation than most engines where the oil drains away from the gasket.

Porsche doesn't seem to have really had this problem, most other manufacturers just said forget it and stick with other engine designs. Subaru seems to have gotten past it but it sure took forever. Who knows if it's really gone on the new ones.

[MRB]

Originally Posted by estilley

Fuel economy is important, but also is highway comfort as most trips will be longer, and on state/interstate freeways...

^ not trying to rain on your parade, but as a long-time Subaru driver, I have two issues with Subaru's:

One is that the seats are uncomfortable - I find the seats to be less comfortable than those of my other cars. Wife's Camry, and kid hauler GMC Suburban.

Secondly, replacement parts are expensive. With the exception of consumable parts (brake pads, rotors, etc.), aftermarket parts are non-existent in that new replacement parts have to be purchased through an authorized Subaru dealer, thus they're expensive as compared to other vehicles that I drive.

HTH and just my two cents. All that being said, they are good cars. Just not perfect cars, if there is such a thing.

[Ralph]

If you were buying a 2017 model.....and fuel economy not a huge concern.....would you get the 4 or 6? Somewhere I read the 6 uses a chain to run the valves, the 4 still a belt. Even Honda has gone to chains on their 4's. My daughter's 5 year old 2012 Honda CRV has a chain controlling the valves. That's one reason the new models not as quiet as older belt driven models.

I have a 9 year old 4 cyl Mercury Milan (not worth much.....inherited from mother in law....only 31,000 miles) that idles rough as hell, but uses a chain to run valves. Mechanic says they run forever.....very little maintenance needed.

[Mr. Pink]

All I can say is, if you own an 05-10 or so, check your oil. A lot. I learned the hard way.

[estilley]

Originally Posted by Ralph

If you were buying a 2017 model.....and fuel economy not a huge concern.....would you get the 4 or 6? Somewhere I read the 6 uses a chain to run the valves, the 4 still a belt. Even Honda has gone to chains on their 4's. My daughter's 5 year old 2012 Honda CRV has a chain controlling the valves. That's one reason the new models not as quiet as older belt driven models.

I have a 9 year old 4 cyl Mercury Milan (not worth much.....inherited from mother in law....only 31,000 miles) that idles rough as hell, but uses a chain to run valves. Mechanic says they run forever.....very little maintenance needed.

H6 Subies use chains. All models as early as the '01s is pretty sure. Apparently they're easier on maintenance as they don't have to be changed like a belt every 50k.

While we're on the subject...any other cars I should be looking at? Needs AWD and not horrendous fuel economy and a price of slightly less than $10k but that's about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[likebikes]

honestly my favorite mountain cars are small econoboxes, with snow tires.

my favorite mountain car ever was a 99 civic coupe, unstoppable with snow tires. plenty of times i've passed spun out awd vehicles in the ditch or off the road- usually by going to fast/driving too recklessly.

[cmbicycles]

Originally Posted by Ralph

If you were buying a 2017 model.....and fuel economy not a huge concern.....would you get the 4 or 6? Somewhere I read the 6 uses a chain to run the valves, the 4 still a belt. Even Honda has gone to chains on their 4's. My daughter's 5 year old 2012 Honda CRV has a chain controlling the valves. That's one reason the new models not as quiet as older belt driven models.

I have a 9 year old 4 cyl Mercury Milan (not worth much.....inherited from mother in law....only 31,000 miles) that idles rough as hell, but uses a chain to run valves. Mechanic says they run forever.....very little maintenance needed.

Another Mechanic I know, who rides bikes, said that the newer chain driven models often have what looks like bicycle chains on them. Pretty thin and not what you would expect a car timing chain to look like. He said often the belts last longer than the newer chains.

[11.4]

I had '05 and '08 Outbacks and now a '17 Outback, mixed in with a couple Ford Superdutys as a second and work vehicle. Subarus from '05 to '08 were generally higher maintenance, but Subaru does seem to have addressed a couple of the issues that were prevalent in those years. More recent Subies are consistently getting past the 120-140K mile mark without notable problems.

I'd suggest you consider going a little newer than that window. Those years are cheaper for a reason and you'll pay the differential in service costs.

As for the 2.5 versus 3.6, I've had both. The 3.6 has a little bit of an edge, but if you simply drive the 2.5 you won't notice any lack of power or handling. I can routinely drive long distances at 75-90 mph with a pod on top and a bike rack on the hitch and not feel I lose oomph on hills or elsewhere. There was only about 1.5 mpg difference for me between the two engines, but spending something like $3100 for an engine upgrade that didn't make much difference didn't seem to make much sense.

As others have pointed out, be religious about oil changes and checking oil levels. And use synthetic oil. A couple good independent Subaru mechanics have told me that they see engine problems mostly when engines haven't gotten the oil changes on schedule or when oil levels have dropped. Buying an older Subaru, you don't know how it's been serviced and cared for, and early abuse can cause a problem in later years. That applies to all Subarus of all ages. Some cars are very tolerant of bad service; these aren't. Conversely, you minimize a lot of issues by being careful.

And yes, I've had both the chain and belt timing systems, and the chain doesn't necessarily do any better than the belt. It's not a timing chain like you'd find on many other vehicles, and it doesn't take much to kick the engine, but timing belts have gotten to be extremely reliable so today I'd take the belt over the chain myself. It also doesn't do damage in the engine as it wears or breaks (something we're all familiar with here in another kind of drivetrain).

[estilley]

Originally Posted by 11.4

I had '05 and '08 Outbacks and now a '17 Outback, mixed in with a couple Ford Superdutys as a second and work vehicle. Subarus from '05 to '08 were generally higher maintenance, but Subaru does seem to have addressed a couple of the issues that were prevalent in those years. More recent Subies are consistently getting past the 120-140K mile mark without notable problems.



I'd suggest you consider going a little newer than that window. Those years are cheaper for a reason and you'll pay the differential in service costs.



As for the 2.5 versus 3.6, I've had both. The 3.6 has a little bit of an edge, but if you simply drive the 2.5 you won't notice any lack of power or handling. I can routinely drive long distances at 75-90 mph with a pod on top and a bike rack on the hitch and not feel I lose oomph on hills or elsewhere. There was only about 1.5 mpg difference for me between the two engines, but spending something like $3100 for an engine upgrade that didn't make much difference didn't seem to make much sense.



As others have pointed out, be religious about oil changes and checking oil levels. And use synthetic oil. A couple good independent Subaru mechanics have told me that they see engine problems mostly when engines haven't gotten the oil changes on schedule or when oil levels have dropped. Buying an older Subaru, you don't know how it's been serviced and cared for, and early abuse can cause a problem in later years. That applies to all Subarus of all ages. Some cars are very tolerant of bad service; these aren't. Conversely, you minimize a lot of issues by being careful.



And yes, I've had both the chain and belt timing systems, and the chain doesn't necessarily do any better than the belt. It's not a timing chain like you'd find on many other vehicles, and it doesn't take much to kick the engine, but timing belts have gotten to be extremely reliable so today I'd take the belt over the chain myself. It also doesn't do damage in the engine as it wears or breaks (something we're all familiar with here in another kind of drivetrain).

Great info!

Might keep a lookout for an '09.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[froze]

I would go with the 6 because of the more horsepower. The gas mileage may be a bit less but only by 1 mpg, but the frustration of getting up to speed, or passing someone, won't be there with the 6. The 6 is more relaxed on the freeway without the buzz that the 4 has, but that's due to the more hp of course.

I also wouldn't buy the first 2 years of any model or engine design, wait till the bugs are mostly ironed out.

Also the 6 doesn't have the head issues the 4 had. The 6 is bullet proof, will last many miles without issues...if you maintain it of course. There were a small percentage of people who did have head gasket issues with the 6 but most, if not all of those people did not use Subaru branded coolant.

These cars, like a ton of others, do use CV joints and those have boots so you need to check to make sure the boots are still good. The AC seals and hoses will leak after many miles but any car will do that. Keep your eye on your oil level, apparently the 6 does burn a small amount of oil naturally, so every time you fill up with fuel check the oil. A note about checking the oil, once you've been checking your oil frequently after you get it, you find out how much oil it burns between oil changes, if the oil only burns down halfway to the add mark there's no reason to keep checking it so frequently because you've established a baseline for oil use, then I would only check it about halfway between oil changes.

Keep in mind that AWD cars do require more maintenance and have more maintenance costs associated with them vs FWD or RWD.

Now for the kicker, I don't believe that a Suby is any better than most other cars, if the car is well maintained almost any car can get over 200,000 miles. Also this head gasket crap, any engine that uses aluminum blocks and heads can develope head gasket issues regardless of brand. I do think that there were a few cars built that were indeed bullet proof, I had a Nissan 280zx that I bought with 95,000 miles on it, I drove it for another 150,000 miles and a lot of those miles were over 100 mph, and it never had an engine issue, I sold the car to a friend who put another 100,000 miles on it and it still was running like a swiss watch and then he sold it, not sure what happened to it after that. My dad had a 65 Ford Pickup with a straight 6 and he put 985,000 miles on it with no engine work. I haven't heard of any Subys going that long.

It wasn't uncommon for the straight 6 MBZ gasoline engines to go a million miles, or the old 60's era GM straight 6's, or the old Dodge slant 6. And the weird thing about these older engines? when going down the freeway at 70 mph they were turning at least twice the RPM that engines do today, this means that today's engines are not built as well and the only reason they last is due to the much lower RPM's at freeway speed; my 09 Acura 3.5 V6 at 80 mph turns only 2100 RPM, but my 79 Camaro 350 V8 turns 4400 RPM. And I bet that the newest cars with their 9 and 10 speed autos run even less RPM than my Acura at 80 MPH.

[estilley]

Originally Posted by froze

I would go with the 6 because of the more horsepower. The gas mileage may be a bit less but only by 1 mpg, but the frustration of getting up to speed, or passing someone, won't be there with the 6. The 6 is more relaxed on the freeway without the buzz that the 4 has, but that's due to the more hp of course.

I also wouldn't buy the first 2 years of any model or engine design, wait till the bugs are mostly ironed out.

Also the 6 doesn't have the head issues the 4 had. The 6 is bullet proof, will last many miles without issues...if you maintain it of course. There were a small percentage of people who did have head gasket issues with the 6 but most, if not all of those people did not use Subaru branded coolant.

These cars, like a ton of others, do use CV joints and those have boots so you need to check to make sure the boots are still good. The AC seals and hoses will leak after many miles but any car will do that. Keep your eye on your oil level, apparently the 6 does burn a small amount of oil naturally, so every time you fill up with fuel check the oil. A note about checking the oil, once you've been checking your oil frequently after you get it, you find out how much oil it burns between oil changes, if the oil only burns down halfway to the add mark there's no reason to keep checking it so frequently because you've established a baseline for oil use, then I would only check it about halfway between oil changes.

Keep in mind that AWD cars do require more maintenance and have more maintenance costs associated with them vs FWD or RWD.

Now for the kicker, I don't believe that a Suby is any better than most other cars, if the car is well maintained almost any car can get over 200,000 miles. Also this head gasket crap, any engine that uses aluminum blocks and heads can develope head gasket issues regardless of brand. I do think that there were a few cars built that were indeed bullet proof, I had a Nissan 280zx that I bought with 95,000 miles on it, I drove it for another 150,000 miles and a lot of those miles were over 100 mph, and it never had an engine issue, I sold the car to a friend who put another 100,000 miles on it and it still was running like a swiss watch and then he sold it, not sure what happened to it after that. My dad had a 65 Ford Pickup with a straight 6 and he put 985,000 miles on it with no engine work. I haven't heard of any Subys going that long.

It wasn't uncommon for the straight 6 MBZ gasoline engines to go a million miles, or the old 60's era GM straight 6's, or the old Dodge slant 6. And the weird thing about these older engines? when going down the freeway at 70 mph they were turning at least twice the RPM that engines do today, this means that today's engines are not built as well and the only reason they last is due to the much lower RPM's at freeway speed; my 09 Acura 3.5 V6 at 80 mph turns only 2100 RPM, but my 79 Camaro 350 V8 turns 4400 RPM. And I bet that the newest cars with their 9 and 10 speed autos run even less RPM than my Acura at 80 MPH.

After doing some reading today and comparing a lot of different MPG figures I think I'm going to go with the 6.

It is primarily a highway vehicle and comfort at speed will be an added plus.

Speaking of high mileage I had a 1985 Mercedes 240d that I gave away at 375k to the radio station, of which I think they just junked it. What a waste.

My 540i is near right on the cusp of 200k, now that's a solid freeway car!