OT: '09 VW Beetle 5-spd Clutch slave/master cyl

[Red Tornado]

Bought this car for the wife last spring, mileage was mid-60's. In short, this week will be the third time about 1 1/2 years we have had to replace the clutch master & slave cylinders. There is no VW dealer ion the city where we live, but there is a "foreign car only" shop that works mostly on Euro cars and has a very good reputation in town. Always use VW parts.
Symptoms we have now: difficult to shift when running, shifts easy when not running & if you start it in 1st or Rev with the clutch pedal pressed all the way down the car wants to creep forward/backward when you crank the motor. Same symptoms as the last two times. First time it happened, they found one of the two cables or links from the shifter were broken, so replaced it but last time nothing broken and as far as I can tell still OK now.
With all the VW owners on this forum, I thought maybe ya'll could tell me if VW makes crappy clutch cylinders, is there a different brand we could try, is this a wide-spread problem with late 90's VW's w/manual trans in general? Just looking for some general input. Wife loves to drive the car, gets decent mileage, but this is starting to really annoy me. At several hundred dollars a pop, I don't want to replace these on the average of 2X a year.
Another smaller, but annoying, thing is the passenger side headlight pod or can. Over the past year I've noticed it moves just far enough to unplug itself from the "socket", and of course none of the bulbs will light up. When I see it happening (approx every 4-6 weeks), I unlock the can push it back into p;ace - about 1/8" or so - and lock it down again. I'm guessing the lock is worn maybe? Anyone else experience this with the "new" Beetles?
Thanks.

[Red Tornado]

Wow, no replies. Figured with all the VW owners here there would be at least a couple Beetle owners that might have had the same experience. Oh well, I guess not.
Anyhoo....
A friend who has a mobile auto/truck repair business took a look at it and he recommended a shop in town that has worked on a lot of foreign cars and supposedly does a good job. I hadn't heard of this place before but I thought, OK I'm striking out with this car anyway what's the harm in letting them have a look at the brake/clutch system?
After they had it for a couple days, they told me it needed a new clutch and the master & slave cylinders were working properly; car has 77K on it. So, I really was skeptical that the clutch was the issue, since in between repairs, the tranny shift great. But I'm not a mechanic, so I gave them permission to replace the clutch.
$2K later, I go to drive it home. Paid earlier in the day & came back to get later that eve w/the wife. Shifts great from 1st to 2nd and all other gears through 5th. Kinda hard to get into 1st gear. Also goes in reverse easily, but difficult to take out of reverse. Overall the shifting is slightly better than before, but now have two gears that still give me trouble. Prob will take it back to see if there's something that can be adjusted maybe/hopefully?
So basically everything, except the transmission itself, has been replaced and the problem is still there. I'm starting to wonder if a new tranny is next. Tranny is quiet and seems to be really smooth when driving the car.
Suffice it to say this is both my first and my last VW Beetle. Car has been nothing but a headache since the first couple months we owned it.
My buddy & the shop that replaced the clutch told me they thought I should sell it and get something else. Told me they're designed & built "cheaply". I'm starting to agree. problem is, until I get the shifting issues taken care of, I can't even sell it. And by the time I do, I'll have so much money invested in this car I won't be able to get it back selling/trading at a fair market price.
Anyone experience anything similar with other VW models? Is the Beetle the only piece of crap they make?

[shovelhd]

I don't want to jinx my car that's currently in the shop but I've not had any issues with VW manual transmissions. The hydraulic issues don't make sense to me. I'd be looking at the flywheel, output shaft, stuff like that. Good luck.

[josephr]

posting a response to let you know someone is reading and sympathizing, however, not really knowledgeable on new beetles...my last VW was a 1998 Golf and had linkage problems with a busted plastic bushing thing....still shifting into 1st/reverse gave some trouble. Figured the synchronizer was binding up and would let out the clutch a bit to move the tranny a hair and then it'd behave correctly.

could be linkage, could be a worn out synchronizer (since 1st/reverse are the same)...hard to say being an internet away.

[staggerwing]

While not speaking directly to your Beetle, I just had to have the clutch in my '05 Mazda3 replaced at ~77,000miles. I saw what they pulled out, and it was well and truly "toast" with the friction material completely shredded on the pressure plate side, and very little left on the flywheel side. The new Exedy (Japanese OEM) clutch didn't seem like it had much material either.

The guy I used for mine is a certified cheapskate, but insisted he would only warranty the work if we replaced the flywheel too. Said the tolerances were too tight to risk grinding the original flywheel.

I've had 4 manual transmission cars previously, including a '94 VR6 Passat, that all made it past 100,000 miles on their original clutches, so I don't think it is my shifting ability.

Unlikely the clutch in your '09 would likely be any different than what VW put in either the Golf or Jetta of that year. Push the garage to work out the kinks, and keep driving.

[Ken Robb]

Some of the symptoms you describe (creeping) COULD be caused by air bubbles in the fluid between clutch master and slave cylinders but that would probably affect all gears rather than just a couple. Some BMW models are notorious for being difficult for mechanics to get all the bubbles out of the clutch lines. I think dealers have expensive "special" tools to get it done right. VW dealers might also have similar tools that independent shops don't.

Why not call the nearest VW dealer, explain the problem and see what their service people have to say? If the service writer/advisor doesn't know what you are talking about ask for the service manager. If they can fix it a drive of a few hundred miles would be worth it to me.

[Red Tornado]

Replies to a couple posts on here...

Staggerwing/Shovelhd: They replaced the flywheel along with the clutch, hence the $2K+ bill. Changed from a dual mass flywheel to a single mass. Told me they've done this before on other VW's and worked out fine. I would think that "while they're in there" they would maybe take a look at the other parts they could see or get to, if nothing else to eliminate them from consideration. But that would take extra time, so maybe not.

Ken Robb: Suspected that after the 1st repair, which was to replace a broken master cylinder. Took back to shop, they re-bled the system, worked great after that - for a while. This latest go around, shop bled the system several times as they initially thought that could be the problem.

josephr: Found out driving it this morning that if I double clutch it when stopped, it goes into 1st gear perfectly. Last time I double clutched a vehicle it was a grain truck! After I made my 2nd post, I got to thinking about the synchronizer but wouldn't that affect all gears? There are two parts that I can only describe as "linkage cables" that were replaced about 6-8 months ago. Basically looks like a bicycle brake cable on steroids with a thick sheath or jacket over it and fittings on the ends. One was broken the other intact but looked worn, so changed out both on repair #2 IIRC.

Shop owner told me to give it a couple more days to finish the break-in period and then let him know how it's going. If it still acts up by the end of the week, and he can't get it going properly, I'm afraid I'll have to go to the VW Dealer in the next city (~1 hour drive) and see if they can sort it out - at a premium cost, I'm sure.

Appreciate the input from ya'll. Not so much looking for advice, but I will accept it - you never know, as much as kinda fishing to see if I bought a lemon for my wife or if these issues occur with other VW's as well.

[bobswire]

Originally Posted by Red Tornado

Replies to a couple posts on here...

Staggerwing: They replaced the flywheel along with the clutch, hence the $2K+ bill. Changed from a dual mass flywheel to a single mass. Told me they've done this before on other VW's and worked out fine.

Ken Robb: Suspected that after the 1st repair, which was to replace a broken master cylinder. Took back to shop, they re-bled the system, worked great after that - for a while. This latest go around, shop bled the system several times as they initially thought that could be the problem.

josephr: Found out driving it this morning that if I double clutch it when stopped, it goes into 1st gear perfectly. Last time I double clutched a vehicle it was a grain truck! After I made my 2nd post, I got to thinking about the synchronizer but wouldn't that affect all gears? There are two parts that I can only describe as "linkage cables" that were replaced about 6-8 months ago. Basically looks like a bicycle brake cable on steroids with a thick sheath or jacket over it and fittings on the ends. One was broken the other intact but looked worn, so changed out both on repair #2 IIRC.

Shop owner told me to give it a couple more days to finish the break-in period and then let him know how it's going. If it still acts up by the end of the week, and he can't get it going properly, I'm afraid I'll have to go to the VW Dealer in the next city (~1 hour drive) and see if they can sort it out - at a premium cost, I'm sure.

Appreciate the input from ya'll. Not so much looking for advice, but I will accept it - you never know, as much as kinda fishing to see if I bought a lemon for my wife or if these issues occur with other VW's as well.

This won't help you but at least you'll know you are not alone. I read the whole link. http://newbeetle.org/forums/transmis...igh-water.html
BTW I do all my repairs and I find it very fulfilling, there is a ton of info out there for DIY'ers.

[likebikes]

too bad it's not a tdi, you'd probably have thousands of replies by now.

[Red Tornado]

Originally Posted by bobswire

This won't help you but at least you'll know you are not alone. I read the whole link. http://newbeetle.org/forums/transmis...igh-water.html
BTW I do all my repairs and I find it very fulfilling, there is a ton of info out there for DIY'ers.

I just read through that blog. I can feel some of his pain, except I'm letting the shop do the work for me. Don't have the time, tools or the inclination to go through all that myself. Our Beetle has not been through high water since we've owned it. Let's hope the new clutch & flywheel do the trick. Noticed he could also hear the new clutch engage/disengage - mine makes that noise as well.
I've always been partial to manual transmissions. Learned to drive on one, owned a few cars/trucks with them (the parents did as well). Until now neither my parents or I owned a vehicle w/manual trans that didn't have at least 100K on the original clutch. Starting to re-think that mind-set tho.....

[Ken Robb]

I think there may be a tendency to have a bit more clutch wear with a smallish turbo engine vs. normally aspirated. I have a turbo MINI and while it develops lots of torque from 1800 rpm it has very little at idle so I do rev it a little and ease the clutch in slowly to let the turbo spool up. Driving a car with a non-turbo engine I can usually start smoothly by easing out the clutch at idle and feeding in a little gas as the clutch engages but if I try that with my turbo I can get a momentary bog when the clutch bites before the turbo is spinning fast enough to provide boost and torque.

A little more slip=a little more wear though at only 55,000 miles the MINI shows no signs of wear of any kind.

[carpediemracing]

Originally Posted by Red Tornado

Replies to a couple posts on here...

Staggerwing/Shovelhd: They replaced the flywheel along with the clutch, hence the $2K+ bill. Changed from a dual mass flywheel to a single mass. Told me they've done this before on other VW's and worked out fine. I would think that "while they're in there" they would maybe take a look at the other parts they could see or get to, if nothing else to eliminate them from consideration. But that would take extra time, so maybe not.

Ken Robb: Suspected that after the 1st repair, which was to replace a broken master cylinder. Took back to shop, they re-bled the system, worked great after that - for a while. This latest go around, shop bled the system several times as they initially thought that could be the problem.

josephr: Found out driving it this morning that if I double clutch it when stopped, it goes into 1st gear perfectly. Last time I double clutched a vehicle it was a grain truck! After I made my 2nd post, I got to thinking about the synchronizer but wouldn't that affect all gears? There are two parts that I can only describe as "linkage cables" that were replaced about 6-8 months ago. Basically looks like a bicycle brake cable on steroids with a thick sheath or jacket over it and fittings on the ends. One was broken the other intact but looked worn, so changed out both on repair #2 IIRC.

Shop owner told me to give it a couple more days to finish the break-in period and then let him know how it's going. If it still acts up by the end of the week, and he can't get it going properly, I'm afraid I'll have to go to the VW Dealer in the next city (~1 hour drive) and see if they can sort it out - at a premium cost, I'm sure.

Appreciate the input from ya'll. Not so much looking for advice, but I will accept it - you never know, as much as kinda fishing to see if I bought a lemon for my wife or if these issues occur with other VW's as well.

We have two VWs (2010, 2011), and previously I had a 1998 and a 1987. All were manuals. I imagine that our transmissions are similar to yours.

On synchros - there is one per gear, they basically help the gears engage the matching gear on an "idle shaft" if you will. Instead of having one chainring you have a pair of gears that always work together. It's like having a 34x28, 36x26, 38x24, etc. Each pair of gears gets used together, not with others. The synchros are specific to each pair of gears. It's common to wear out the first gear synchro since it's engaged when the idle shaft is idle. It's also common to wear out the second gear synchro since people tend to shift down the gears without rev-matching at all.

I have no idea what would cause a number of slave cylinders to fail, or a clutch to go so early.

With the shop that replaced the clutch did they give you back the old pressure plate and flywheel? I'm curious how worn the clutch was at 77k miles.

On other cars I've driven clutches well over 100k with no problems. I'd be unhappy to have to replace a clutch at 77k.

[batman1425]

The syncros don't have much to do with selecting 1st gear when stopped. If you leave the clutch in long enough, the transmission will eventually stop spinning. If the gears aren't lined up when they stop, you'll have a hard time getting it into first. This is common with lots of MT cars (including new ones) and the fix is just what you did. Put it in neutral, let out the clutch for a couple seconds to get the transmission spinning again, then you can select 1st with out issue using the synchros. I have to do this occasionally for 1st and Rev on my brand new (1700miles) Golf R. It happens.

Also - synchros are separate for each gear - and the ones on 1st and 2nd typically wear first because they are the ones that get used (and abused) the most. If your clutch needed replacing at 60K, it suggests that it saw a lot of abuse from the previous owner - so worn synchros are a reasonably concern at this point for gear selection difficulties (provided the difficulty occurs when the transmission is spinning when you make the selection as described above).

Another possibility - the shift cable linkages could be worn. Put it in gear and try to move the stick side to side. Is there a lot of slop? If so, the cable end links could be worn which would make correct engagement spotty. Those are cheap to fix, could be worth a shot.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

I'd be unhappy to have to replace a clutch at 77k.

Me too... but I've seen the way some people drive stick, and I wonder how their's make it 10k, let alone 100k. My money is on the car's first owner driving it with fists of ham before the OP picked it up.

Original Flywheel/friction plate could have been bent - which could manifest as a hydraulic problem (creep). And would explain why 3 cylinders didn't fix it.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by batman1425

The syncros don't have much to do with selecting 1st gear when stopped. If you leave the clutch in long enough, the transmission will eventually stop spinning. If the gears aren't lined up when they stop, you'll have a hard time getting it into first. This is common with lots of MT cars (including new ones) and the fix is just what you did. Put it in neutral, let out the clutch for a couple seconds to get the transmission spinning again, then you can select 1st with out issue using the synchros. I have to do this occasionally for 1st and Rev on my brand new (1700miles) Golf R. It happens.

Also - synchros are separate for each gear - and the ones on 1st and 2nd typically wear first because they are the ones that get used (and abused) the most. If your clutch needed replacing at 60K, it suggests that it saw a lot of abuse from the previous owner - so worn synchros are a reasonably concern at this point for gear selection difficulties (provided the difficulty occurs when the transmission is spinning when you make the selection as described above).

Another possibility - the shift cable linkages could be worn. Put it in gear and try to move the stick side to side. Is there a lot of slop? If so, the cable end links could be worn which would make correct engagement spotty. Those are cheap to fix, could be worth a shot.

I'm leaning this way as well. If they swapped the DMF then they had a good look at the input shaft. You could replace the rubber bushings and/or shift cables or look into a short shift kit like Dieselgeek.