Are Richard Sachs frames not a draw anymore?

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

It isn't an issue of the builders being outdated. A used RS two years ago met all of the modern trend click boxes with no limiting factors. That's less true now...so there's less demand from some buyers.

I dunno, I kinda think that people seriously interested in a Sachs generally aren't going to turn away from it because it doesn't tick all the boxes on current-day trends.

that said, my '02(ish) Sachs fits wide rims and tires, has a threaded BB (because modern or not, press-fit is evil) and will eventually have a wireless drivetrain. that's modern enough, ATMO.

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

Now people want disc, 1 1/8 head tube, through axels, more tire clearance, etc. .

I'm glad I don't fit this descriptive.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by chiasticon

I dunno, I kinda think that people seriously interested in a Sachs generally aren't going to turn away from it because it doesn't tick all the boxes on current-day trends.

Yepppp. It is the only custom bike right now that I would spend money on that wasn't set up for disc, thru-axle, electronic shifting, lots of clearance.

Im not on the list though and likely never will be, but I would be fine with the kind of bike Richie produces.

[sandyrs]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

One data point- I'm 25 and have had three custom steel bikes made for me. I've also owned a few other steel bikes. I was driven to custom early because I'm 6'5" and don't fit a ton of stock bikes (and when I was in college, my fit was so messed up that I thought I fit on even fewer than I presently do).

My perspective is that most of us young'ns are still getting our adult cycling start on a college campus on some 80s Nishiki or Centurion or something before getting "real" bikes for racing. I don't think lack of interest in steel is due to not knowing what a steel frame feels like. It's indicative of a general lack of interest in handmade/idiosyncratic/domestically-manufactured goods, and interest in those goods is coming back in a lot of industries, so I think custom bicycles will be around (in steel) for a long time.

Also remember that in the world of younger people with no savings just getting started being financially independent, custom bicycles are expensive, and many twentysomethings simply can't afford to go custom even though they want to in a world where a CAAD12 with 105 is $1500.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I'm glad I don't fit this descriptive.

I got a bike with those features a few months ago...it's pretty fun. Is it better? More fun? I dunno, it's different, and it's fun. My heart will always be with the "classics" I suspect.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by sandyrs

One data point- I'm 25 and have had three custom steel bikes made for me. I've also owned a few other steel bikes. I was driven to custom early because I'm 6'5" and don't fit a ton of stock bikes (and when I was in college, my fit was so messed up that I thought I fit on even fewer than I presently do).

My perspective is that most of us young'ns are still getting our adult cycling start on a college campus on some 80s Nishiki or Centurion or something before getting "real" bikes for racing. I don't think lack of interest in steel is due to not knowing a steel frame feels like. It's indicative of a general lack of interest in handmade/idiosyncratic/domestically-manufactured goods, and interest in those goods is coming back in a lot of industries, so I think custom bicycles will be around (in steel) for a long time.

It's something that people aren't talking about, but it's true. The last 4 years have seen the first manufacturing gains in ages...it's smaller scale, more boutique, more high end production and it's serving our increasingly polarized economy. There are more people with more money...and stuff like this is appealing to them. Reflecting the general polarization and trends, we're seeing fewer "middle class" outfits and more super cheap or super high end.

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

I got a bike with those features a few months ago...it's pretty fun. Is it better? More fun? I dunno, it's different, and it's fun. My heart will always be with the "classics" I suspect.

I went from a bmx bike as a kid to a road bike as a teen and just have never varied. No mountain bike, no gravel bike, no cross bike, nothing electric or hydraulic, no fixie (well, I did try that, but hated it).

I like the mechanical and hand built nature of a road bike. I'm ok with advanced materials, so long as they are used in a traditional manner. Weird, I know.

[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

It's something that people aren't talking about, but it's true. The last 4 years have seen the first manufacturing gains in ages...it's smaller scale, more boutique, more high end production and it's serving our increasingly polarized economy. There are more people with more money...and stuff like this is appealing to them. Reflecting the general polarization and trends, we're seeing fewer "middle class" outfits and more super cheap or super high end.

That reflection is very true and very sad :/

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

Fwiw I'm 35, started riding on a steel Allez in the mid 90s and always wanted a steel bike from the guy who made Greg LeMond's steel stuff.

So I ride a Della Santa. But I also want a Kirk, a Winter, a Sachs...

I'd say I'm in the extreme minority more because I'm into custom frames than steel per se.

The custom niche is extremely small compared to the broader bike riding populace.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I went from a bmx bike as a kid to a road bike as a teen and just have never varied. No mountain bike, no gravel bike, no cross bike, nothing electric or hydraulic, no fixie (well, I did try that, but hated it).

I like the mechanical and hand built nature of a road bike. I'm ok with advanced materials, so long as they are used in a traditional manner. Weird, I know.

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I went from a bmx bike as a kid to a road bike as a teen and just have never varied. No mountain bike, no gravel bike, no cross bike, nothing electric or hydraulic, no fixie (well, I did try that, but hated it).

I like the mechanical and hand built nature of a road bike. I'm ok with advanced materials, so long as they are used in a traditional manner. Weird, I know.

No man, not weird...whatever makes you grin works

[jet sanchez]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Eric's got a barely used multi-TdF winning quality $7,000 frame that hasn't seen any real updates in three years for 1300 freaking dollars. It's just the state of things. Richie has nothing to do with it.

What's this?

[bcroslin]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

I don't think so...I see a lot of younger folks intrigued by steel frames, and I think many of the recent trends lend themselves quite well to steel. Road bikes might be becoming somewhat less popular of late, but you know how this is...it's cyclical and latest/greatest.

I do LOVE the gravel trend, first because it's a fun way to ride, and second, because it leads to some seriously great, adaptable bikes.

When you go to something like the Bilenky convention...there are a LOT of younger folks there...now they're baristas, but down the road many will be dentists, and they'll want these bikes just like we did when we were poor.


Mine sold for about the same number with DA 7400...which is more than most bikes of that vintage sell for. People want RS bikes, still.

I agree that steel seems to be making a resurgence but I'm also basing that opinion on the fact that I just picked up a steel bike recently after riding carbon for years.

With that said, friends of mine just opened a "coffee and bikes" shop here in St Pete and they don't have a single carbon frame bike in the shop. All vintage steel racing bikes and Moots for guys like me who want something a little more modern. It was a conscious decision after watching several high-end shops that cater to the carbon crowd struggle and fail. I can walk into my local Trek store and I might as well be walking into BestBuy for bikes.

The steel resurgence may be cyclical and it may fade but it feels more authentic than what I'm getting down at the local triathlete emporium full of spendy bikes that I can buy for less on the internet.

[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by jet sanchez

What's this?

Ebaumann´s (father in law if my memory serves) dogma i suppose.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by jet sanchez

What's this?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=165453

same frame under Wiggins and Froome in successive years winning tdf (that doesn't mean anything to me personally, but the point is, this aint a ****ing fuji)
The F8 is different a bit, but could any of us REALLY tell the difference performance-wise?

Retailed for 3700 sterling, 6800USD I believe, roughly.

thirteen hundred freaking dollars.

[ltwtsculler91]

Originally Posted by sandyrs

Also remember that in the world of younger people with no savings just getting started being financially independent, custom bicycles are expensive, and many twentysomethings simply can't afford to go custom even though they want to in a world where a CAAD12 with 105 is $1500.

I'm also 25 and I think this is a huge part of it. A CAAD or Trek Emonda ALR or Allez with 105 or ultegra is a FANTASTIC bike for $1500-$2000 and most of us can't afford much more at the moment.. It may just be where and who I ride with, but most of us younger guys are looking to upgrade to a steel or Ti bike once we have enough saved up to make the jump from Aluminum or entry Carbon.

I'm on a Trek ALR 6 now, and our younger crew is mostly on ALRs or CAAD10s with a few mid level carbon ultegra bikes thrown in