Are Richard Sachs frames not a draw anymore?

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by PQJ

I'm Jewish. ATMO (sorry, couldn't resist), "Sachs" is a Jewish-sounding name. And thus it is that I thought it was cool that a (possible) member of my tribe happened to build bicycles which I liked the look of. That's it.

I believe Gary Klein is Jewish.

[AngryScientist]

i think there are a bunch of reasons the market for pre-owned lugged steel frames is depressed, here are a few:

1) the potential pool of buyers for such a frame is small and finite. there are probably a whole bunch of people who would like to buy a RS frame, but those with enough disposable income to actually purchase one, and the desire to have a used one is a small group.

2) the changing bike atmosphere. many people who thought they were happy with lugged steel bikes are discovering that life exists off pavement, and that aluminum, carbon and Ti bikes are a whole lot lighter. disc brakes are in vogue, fat tire clearance is in demand right now. disposable income is being diverted toward the "gravel bike" over the "classic bike"

3) i think RS makes his lugs and proprietary tubes available to other framebuilders, so if the desire for a lugged steel bike made to order is on the menu, there are more options to get such a thing new, with short waitlist and made to spec, not used.

[sailorboy]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

+2 on this.

Those brief comments about 'shameless self-promotion' etc come across as petty snipes that are likely an effort to continue some ax-grinding that has long-preceded this thread. They don't really contribute to the discussion imho.

You either value what Richard, or any other builder like him brings to the process, or you don't. Simple as that. In addition to all the great advice he's generously provided to fledgling builders in recent years, there is so much to see and enjoy even just going over his flickr pages and writings. Not a lot of people are that publically generous with themselves.

FWIW, the champagne-colored unit that sold across the hall recently was exhaustively presented in a flckr set called "GeeSawa" or something several years ago. You can still find it on page 6 of his flickr albums. Made specially (for a respected member here and over there) with vintage sand-cast lugs that had dozens of hours spent refining the shapes and thinning them as a crucial step in creating the masterpiece that is the final product.

I don't know how many of you on here would value your time in whatever you do for a living, but I call a Sachs-made frame a bargain any day.

[54ny77]

that's because steel bikes are so 2009.

the future is cardboard.

[superbowlpats]

Well he's racing the KMC Cross Fest in Thompson, CT in the Masters 50+ / 60+ races 10/1-2 , stop by and discuss with him

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Originally Posted by Corso

I believe a steel bike made by any craftsman will fetch a bigger re-sale than the sea of plastic-mold bikes that are “new-with loaded features”.

To answer the OP’s question: a Sachs frame is and will always be “wanted”.

Plus about one trillion.

[54ny77]

teensy tiny steel bike used market aside, i wanna know where all the hundreds & hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of carbon bikes sold over the past 8-10 years go? seriously. is there a sea of postal treks hanging from red hooks in garage rafters? are there untold gazillions of tarmacs stuffed in basements?

[eddief]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd1Pyu9_rxo

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by RedRider

I'll agree with the change in demand but the lugged steel frame market is so very small that there will always be a some demand from people that appreciate them. That demand will wax and wane...

It's not lugged steel that is, or isn't, in demand; there will always be some demand for a quality custom made frame. What's less in demand is a used custom bike that has features that don't allow for, or require some adaptation for, some modern trends.

It isn't an issue of the builders being outdated. A used RS two years ago met all of the modern trend click boxes with no limiting factors. That's less true now...so there's less demand from some buyers.

Think of it like this...a 120mm spaced frame had more...particular...demand 3 years ago than a 130mm because of the current standards. I think that's happening now...latest/greatest trends are limiting interest in used bikes with different standards...and that's a very recent change. There will always be demand for bikes of the RS caliber...but it may be a different market (like the market for a 1972 Colnago is different than one from 1998). Think of it in terms of french threading and odd sizing...there's nothing WRONG with it, but it's a possibly limiting factor, or at least one requiring additional effort...so there is, generally, less demand for French bikes than ones that can fit modern standards more easily.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Originally Posted by eddief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd1Pyu9_rxo

She could be a frikkin' martian, sheez, classic beauty. And paid pretty damn good.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/...tanntp#image=9

[Dead Man]

Doesn't seem like Richard Sachs has anything to do with the used market.... can someone make that connection?

As noted, he's not hurting. His frames are still fetching whatever he's charging for them, and there's many times more demand than supply. He has no control over what happens to his frames after they're received by the people who order them from him. You quite literally cannot criticize the man, from a business perspective - his model works just fine.

That out of the way, we're now just talking about nice used steel frames. And they're only worth what a person is willing to pay, across the board. I just think used Sachs frames simply aren't worth what a lot of people think they are. I think there's a sort of inflated perception due to the occasional high-dollar used sale, when the type of person who is willing to spend multiple thousands of dollars on highest-end custom just happens to come across a used frame that just happens to have just the right geometry.... the sale is highly conspicuous, either on bike boards or ebay, and people think "gosh! Used Sachs frame really hold their value!" Yea, only when the stars align perfectly. Otherwise, the dude willing too spend thousands on a custom frame is going to spend his thousands on an actually custom-to-him frame. All others will sit, until their prices come down to comparable with other high-end steel, or just the right, rare person comes along.

Just my thoughts.

I have no boner for Sachs or his bikes.. you can have 'em. But I respect his model, as a fellow tradesman/businessman.


ETA - do you guys who criticized Sachs in this thread think he spends any time at all watching used price trends on his bikes, or cares at all what they go for? Not intended as snide - honest question. I doubt he does at all.

[Mikej]

I'm not a super fan, would never wait 8 years, buy one used for even 25% of $6k? but I'll say that stack of green cross bikes looked pretty dang sweet he posted over on V salon frame builders forum Friday night lights. Coolest looking team ever.

[Climb01742]

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

[rccardr]

As someone who rides only vintage and has a sizeable collection -including an '83 RS with full SR- completely agree that bikes are a terrible investment and the market continues to be soft on price and flush on supply. Whether or not prices go up in the future is pretty irrelevant to me because I don't buy to sell, I buy to ride, and all of my toys get played with. Don't care about carbon, or disk brakes, or any of the other stuff introduced in the past few years. So, a great buying opportunity here if you like steel and have the money and space to indulge.

Looking at it through an economics lense, the supply of upper level nice steel bikes is only increasing (they don't go bad, and few are destroyed or wrecked) while the number of interested buyers remains stagnant or, as some have conjectured, is diminishing. So, yeah, in that kind of a market prices will be capped at a fairly depressed willing buyer-willing seller level. Add in the variability on sizing & installed components, and the potential pool of buyers for any given frame or complete bike just gets that much smaller.

While my personal opinion is that both of the RS frames in question are very, very nice, the market is saying that they are priced too high. As a data point, some time ago I paid just a little under $2K for my complete RS in flawless condition with Super Record. So more than that for a frame? In the real world, maybe not.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

I don't think so...I see a lot of younger folks intrigued by steel frames, and I think many of the recent trends lend themselves quite well to steel. Road bikes might be becoming somewhat less popular of late, but you know how this is...it's cyclical and latest/greatest.

I do LOVE the gravel trend, first because it's a fun way to ride, and second, because it leads to some seriously great, adaptable bikes.

When you go to something like the Bilenky convention...there are a LOT of younger folks there...now they're baristas, but down the road many will be dentists, and they'll want these bikes just like we did when we were poor.

Originally Posted by rccardr

As someone who rides only vintage and has a sizeable collection -including an '83 RS with full SR- completely agree that bikes are a terrible investment and the market continues to be soft on price and flush on supply. Whether or not prices go up in the future is pretty irrelevant to me because I don't buy to sell, I buy to ride, and all of my toys get played with. Don't care about carbon, or disk brakes, or any of the other stuff introduced in the past few years. So, a great buying opportunity here if you like steel and have the money and space to indulge.

Looking at it through an economics lense, the supply of upper level nice steel bikes is only increasing (they don't go bad, and few are destroyed or wrecked) while the number of interested buyers remains stagnant or, as some have conjectured, is diminishing. So, yeah, in that kind of a market prices will be capped at a fairly depressed willing buyer-willing seller level. Add in the variability on sizing & installed components, and the potential pool of buyers for any given frame or complete bike just gets that much smaller.

While my personal opinion is that both of the RS frames in question are very, very nice, the market is saying that they are priced too high. As a data point, some time ago I paid just a little under $2K for my complete RS in flawless condition with Super Record. So more than that for a frame? In the real world, maybe not.

Mine sold for about the same number with DA 7400...which is more than most bikes of that vintage sell for. People want RS bikes, still.