OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[MikeD]

I'm all for EVs, but I'm against the government legislating what type of vehicle I should buy. EVs won't move the global warming needle very much because electric power is mostly generated by fossil fuels and global warming is, well global. What some "utopian" state like California does will make no difference in the global scheme. In the end, EVs cost significantly more than gasoline powered vehicles and represents a tax increase to the public; same with banning cheaper to run natural gas home furnaces, water heaters, and stoves. Utilities are set to raise electricity rates 17% in Cali this year and they just made residential solar more expensive because they changed the NEM metering rules.

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by MikeD

(...) EVs won't move the global warming needle very much because electric power is mostly generated by fossil fuels (...)

Electric vehicles are desirable because electricity can be generated with renewable energy. Here is an article on renewable energy growth from the level-headed folks at Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier...h=3748de112025

From the article: "China is the world’s top consumer of renewable energy. "

China is the single largest automobile market, and is among the nations phasing out the sale of fossil fuel vehicles:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...cles-electric/

China has big plans for investing in renewable energy:

https://www.csis.org/east-green-chin...newable-energy

I'm sure a forum for cyclists can appreciate the fossil fuel industry is not our friend. They would like us to ignore the writing on the wall.

The US needs to step up and dominate the renewable electricity generation industry, or lose it to the Chinese. The fossil fuel industry will be a fossil itself for certain. The only uncertainty is which country will own the market for its replacement.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by dgauthier

Electric vehicles are desirable because electricity can be generated with renewable energy. Here is an article on renewable energy growth from the level-headed folks at Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier...h=3748de112025

From the article: "China is the world’s top consumer of renewable energy. "

China is the single largest automobile market, and is among the nations phasing out the sale of fossil fuel vehicles:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...cles-electric/

China has big plans for investing in renewable energy:

https://www.csis.org/east-green-chin...newable-energy

I'm sure a forum for cyclists can appreciate the fossil fuel industry is not our friend. They would like us to ignore the writing on the wall.

The US needs to step up and dominate the renewable electricity generation industry, or lose it to the Chinese. The fossil fuel industry will be a fossil itself for certain. The only uncertainty is which country will own the market for its replacement.

Don't believe the media BS. China is building coal fired power plants like crazy right now. Green energy is important, but by no means can it currently replace fossil fuels and there's no viable, economic way to store excess solar energy generated during the day. Look at what's happening in Europe, especially Germany when they decided to shut down their nuclear power plants.

[dgauthier]

I predict the fossil fuel industry's FUD will not be able to stand up to the free market forces at work right now. They are toast.

This will all play itself out in the next few years. It will be interesting to read these posts at that time and see what shook out.

[robt57]

This, as usual, has diverged well past the 'vehicle in use'. Which is fine, but I wanted to throw a 'use' data point out there.

Heat [cabin]: Both our PHEV and Bolt are slow (like 80s-90s ICE cars) to come up with the cabin heat. Easy to fix with remote starts.

In an effort to get the price of both of these uber high, packages with seat heat and steering wheel etc help this. Try to find these, especially the Pacifica with low packages without, well they use the chips they do get wisely...

But I find when it is very cold, I intentionally press/floor the switch/pedal that approximates a gas pedal. This thus request add in the ICE motor and the heat comes up in less than a minute.

Side note: the PHEV below 39^ will start the ICE motor upon remote starts. I've come disapprove of hearing it run, and use gas.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by robt57

This, as usual, has diverged well past the 'vehicle in use'. Which is fine, but I wanted to throw a 'use' data point out there.

Heat [cabin]: Both our PHEV and Bolt are slow (like 80s-90s ICE cars) to come up with the cabin heat. Easy to fix with remote starts.

In an effort to get the price of both of these uber high, packages with seat heat and steering wheel etc help this. Try to find these, especially the Pacifica with low packages without, well they use the chips they do get wisely...

But I find when it is very cold, I intentionally press/floor the switch/pedal that approximates a gas pedal. This thus request add in the ICE motor and the heat comes up in less than a minute.

Side note: the PHEV below 39^ will start the ICE motor upon remote starts. I've come disapprove of hearing it run, and use gas.

Some one want to interpret this, please?

[robt57]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

Some one want to interpret this, please?

My divergent writing, or the EV terms ICE and PHEV?

ICE=InternalCombustionEngine
PHEV=PluginHybridElecVehicle

[p nut]

Out here in the west, especially the places I go, gas stations are scarce, much less charge stations. As much as try to justify an EV, I can’t (without getting it as a 3rd car, which I refuse to do). I only drive 5k miles a year now. Half that is traveling to camp/bike spots.
In short, I’m not the target audience, which is why I just bought an offroad rig today with a manual transmission

But every time I see an Hyundai Ioniq 5 pass by, I keep wishing I could somehow justify a $50k 3rd vehicle.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by robt57

This, as usual, has diverged well past the 'vehicle in use'. Which is fine, but I wanted to throw a 'use' data point out there.

Heat [cabin]: Both our PHEV and Bolt are slow (like 80s-90s ICE cars) to come up with the cabin heat. Easy to fix with remote starts.

In an effort to get the price of both of these uber high, packages with seat heat and steering wheel etc help this. Try to find these, especially the Pacifica with low packages without, well they use the chips they do get wisely...

But I find when it is very cold, I intentionally press/floor the switch/pedal that approximates a gas pedal. This thus request add in the ICE motor and the heat comes up in less than a minute.

Side note: the PHEV below 39^ will start the ICE motor upon remote starts. I've come disapprove of hearing it run, and use gas.

Tesla will precondition the battery and cabin when plugged in. This means a toasty cabin and seats and steering wheel when you’re ready to go. The functionality is in the app that is part of Tesla life.

Without being plugged in it may not precondition the battery, just the cabin. I’m honestly not certain.

When plugged in and preconditioning, it is obviously drawing from the power source. The heat pump runs and it’s clearly “on” but there is obviously no engine so this process can happen in a closed garage, which is how it works at my house.

The Tesla is pretty quick to heat the cabin, but a super cold-soaked car will still have to obey the laws of physics to warm up. Also, it’s definitely less efficient at very cold temps and when it has to use its own juice to get the battery to optimal operating temperature.

[HenryA]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...vs-11671372223

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” Mr. Toyoda said to reporters during a visit to Thailand. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

While major rivals, including General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co., have set dates for when their lineups will be all-EV, Toyota has stuck to a strategy of investing in a diverse lineup of vehicles that includes hydrogen-powered cars and hybrids, which combine batteries with gas engines.

The world’s biggest auto maker has said it sees hybrids, a technology it invented with the debut of the Toyota Prius in the 1990s, as an important option when EVs remain expensive and charging infrastructure is still being built out in many parts of the world. It is also developing zero-emission vehicles powered by hydrogen.”

Good to see some common sense applied.

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by HenryA

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...vs-11671372223

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” Mr. Toyoda said to reporters during a visit to Thailand. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

While major rivals, including General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co., have set dates for when their lineups will be all-EV, Toyota has stuck to a strategy of investing in a diverse lineup of vehicles that includes hydrogen-powered cars and hybrids, which combine batteries with gas engines.

The world’s biggest auto maker has said it sees hybrids, a technology it invented with the debut of the Toyota Prius in the 1990s, as an important option when EVs remain expensive and charging infrastructure is still being built out in many parts of the world. It is also developing zero-emission vehicles powered by hydrogen.”

Good to see some common sense applied.

Since this thread was started just over three years ago, I will go on the record with this:

There are those who think Toyota screwed up royally with their hydrogen strategy, and missed the EV revolution. Toyota has no real plan for producing EV's (their BZ4X is an embarrassment), and they will face serious headwinds trying to compete while carrying their enormous debt. While the Japanese government will never let Toyota go bankrupt, Toyota will continue as a much smaller shadow of their former selves.*

Okay, take a look at this three years from now, and see if the prognosticators are right!

*In other words, the head of Toyota sounds a lot like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by HenryA

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...vs-11671372223

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” Mr. Toyoda said to reporters during a visit to Thailand. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

While major rivals, including General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co., have set dates for when their lineups will be all-EV, Toyota has stuck to a strategy of investing in a diverse lineup of vehicles that includes hydrogen-powered cars and hybrids, which combine batteries with gas engines.

The world’s biggest auto maker has said it sees hybrids, a technology it invented with the debut of the Toyota Prius in the 1990s, as an important option when EVs remain expensive and charging infrastructure is still being built out in many parts of the world. It is also developing zero-emission vehicles powered by hydrogen.”

Good to see some common sense applied.

I think Toyota has the right approach. Inadequate power grid capacity, lack of charging infrastructure, not being able to charge at home for most people living in high density housing. Full EVs don't make sense for most people.

[BdaGhisallo]

If you're going to promote EV's amidst a green transition, it would help if you could be sure you can power them:

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/artic...alflow_twitter

Klaus Müller, the president of the German Federal Network Agency [which regulates gas and electricity], has warned that the growing number of private electric car charging stations and electric-powered heat pumps could overload the power grid in Germany. “If very large numbers of new heat pumps and charging stations continue to be installed, then we’ll have to worry about overload problems and local power failures … if we do not act” …

According to the report, the … regulatory authority considers local low-voltage grids to be particularly susceptible to disruptions. The Agency has therefore published a strategy paper planning to ration the power consumption of heat pumps and electric car charging stations in times of high network utilisation. … Grid operators would then be forced to throttle the power supply to these systems … The plans for electricity rationing are slated to come into effect on 1 January 2024 …

Even in the event of power rationing, private charging stations would be able to draw enough power to charge an electric vehicle battery within three hours for a range of 50 kilometres, he said. Additionally … “nearly trouble-free continued operation” should still be possible for a large number of heat pumps.

-------------------

I wonder if German drivers are pleased to hear that their driving might be limited to a 50-kilometre radius at any moment without notice, and also that their heaters will probably mostly work most of the time.

[username]

The massive spread of automobiles beginning in the first decades of the twentieth century completely overwhelmed American roads. Municipalities, states, and most of all the federal government responded by upgrading roads throughout the United States in order to accommodate cars relatively safely. If EVs continue to grow popular enough, the same will very likely happen with the electric grid.

Put another way, telling innovators not innovate—or, more absurdly, consumers not to consume more innovative products—because of disinvestment in public goods like infrastructure seems unlikely to succeed and almost certainly is bad for the nation's economic prospects over the long term.

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by username

The massive spread of automobiles beginning in the first decades of the twentieth century completely overwhelmed American roads. Municipalities, states, and most of all the federal government responded by upgrading roads throughout the United States in order to accommodate cars relatively safely. If EVs continue to grow popular enough, the same will very likely happen with the electric grid.

Put another way, telling innovators not innovate—or, more absurdly, consumers not to consume more innovative products—because of disinvestment in public goods like infrastructure seems unlikely to succeed and almost certainly is bad for the nation's economic prospects over the long term.

Infrastructure for EV would be built and operated by the private sector. The government could give tax benefits to corporations to encourage expansion. This is different than roadbeds and asphalt put down by private companies then maintained using tax dollars.

Until the government gets together with private industry and develops an expansion plan, any legislation or government action is pointless.