OT: Smaller legal job markets for a new lawyer in California and Oregon

[doomridesout]

I know there are plenty of attorneys on the forum with similar lifestyle priorities, so I thought I'd ask: I'm going to be graduating law school in 2018 and taking the California bar, and I want to lay groundwork for a move with my wife and soon-to-be-born daughter. I'm looking for advice on smaller cities with great riding, that are family friendly, have a lower cost of living, and have a sufficient legal market for me to find work. I'm currently in Davis and I'm working in Sacramento this summer. I think there will be opportunity in the area for me that I'd seriously consider in the absence of something solid elsewhere. I wanted to go to the Bay or LA I could make that happen, but we'd prefer not to do that. Further north is preferable and we've considered Oregon. Getting barred in both states has crossed my mind. Is anyone on the forum an attorney with a humane, family-friendly work life, able to do kick-ass rides in the mountains somewhere in the less populous parts of the West Coast? Does anyone know what the legal job markets in Ashland, Eugene, Medford, Grant's Pass, or Humboldt County are like?
Thanks in advance.

[Peter B]

Originally Posted by doomridesout

<snip>

Is anyone on the forum an attorney with a humane, family-friendly work life, able to do kick-ass rides in the mountains somewhere in the less populous parts of the West Coast? Does anyone know what the legal job markets in Ashland, Eugene, Medford, Grant's Pass, or Humboldt County are like?
Thanks in advance.

$$ will likely be proportionate to 'suffering' but this is a great question to ask early in your career. This stretch of the Pacific NW offers incredible riding and environment if one can find adequate income. Several forumites hail from this region and might be able to offer feedback.

Did you happen to specialize in law as it relates to the evolving medical/recreational pot industry? Skills in that area in that area will likely be in demand given recent CA ballot initiatives and apparent inclinations of the new US AG.

Best of luck in your next venture Willie!

[ofcounsel]

Originally Posted by doomridesout

Is anyone on the forum an attorney with a humane, family-friendly work life, able to do kick-ass rides in the mountains somewhere in the less populous parts of the West Coast?

Coming out of Columbia Law, I did what many of my classmates did and took a job with a "Big Law" firm. The money was really great, in particular when you consider how little 1st year lawyers are actually worth. But the pressure of billable hours really tough and took a toll on my sanity. "Life" kinda sucked during that time of my life.

So after 4 years of Big Law, I made my escape and took a job with the in-house law department of on our local investor-owned utilities. The pay was initially significantly less than I was making in Big Law (I took about a 40% pay cut). But in trade, I had a great work environment. Basically, I had "regular" 9 to 5 work hours for the most part, vacation time I didn't have to worry about canceling at the last minute and the mental health/stability to foster a healthy family/home environment.

I've since moved on to another in-house law department, and I've been at my current gig for 7 years. So after about 15 years of in-house law practice, I still have a very solid work-life balance, no chasing after clients, and no billable hours. I have plenty of time for my kids activities and for my riding.

The pay is nowhere near what a "big law" partner with my years of experience makes, but I make about what a partner at a "smallish" firm in LA/NYC would make... And that's pretty good all things considered.

So if you're looking for something along those lines, consider looking at in-house gigs. Admittedly, it's sometimes a challenge to get an in-house gig right of of school, but some digging often turns up a few positions. The Association of Corporate Counsel is a good resources for in-house jobs. http://www.acc.com
Linkedin is another decent source for in-house positions.

[ptourkin]

Originally Posted by ofcounsel

Coming out of Columbia Law, I did what many of my classmates did and took a job with a "Big Law" firm. The money was really great, in particular when you consider how little 1st year lawyers are actually worth. But the pressure of billable hours really tough and took a toll on my sanity. "Life" kinda sucked during that time of my life.

So after 4 years of Big Law, I made my escape and took a job with the in-house law department of on our local investor-owned utilities. The pay was initially significantly less than I was making in Big Law (I took about a 40% pay cut). But in trade, I had a great work environment. Basically, I had "regular" 9 to 5 work hours for the most part, vacation time I didn't have to worry about canceling at the last minute and the mental health/stability to foster a healthy family/home environment.

I've since moved on to another in-house law department, and I've been at my current gig for 7 years. So after about 15 years of in-house law practice, I still have a very solid work-life balance, no chasing after clients, and no billable hours. I have plenty of time for my kids activities and for my riding.

The pay is nowhere near what a "big law" partner with my years of experience makes, but I make about what a partner at a "smallish" firm in LA/NYC would make... And that's pretty good all things considered.

So if you're looking for something along those lines, consider looking at in-house gigs. Admittedly, it's sometimes a challenge to get an in-house gig right of of school, but some digging often turns up a few positions. The Association of Corporate Counsel is a good resources for in-house jobs. http://www.acc.com
Linkedin is another decent source for in-house positions.

Same. Went from the other NY Ivy to government and then the world's biggest law firm. Money was fun but life was hell. The job was incompatible with a healthy lifestyle for me.

Working for the government was closer to 9-5 than anything I've done in the law. Or, as Peter B suggested, if you have time to develop a good niche specialty and can learn the business aspects of a solo practice, you can have greater control of your life if your financial goals are reasonable. Looking back, I wish I had taken this path from the beginning. Find a developing sector and see what they need. I have a relative who glommed on to the cellular industry and learned the ins and outs of the law regarding cell towers before anyone knew what they were. It became very lucrative.

Regarding the marijuana industry, I knew someone who was doing law school while bartending just as the craft beer boom was beginning in San Diego. She created her own specialty and AFAIK was one of the goto attorneys in the sector as it grew. Now the big firms have practice groups who do this.

Good luck.

[jtakeda]

Originally Posted by Peter B

$$ will likely be proportionate to 'suffering' but this is a great question to ask early in your career. This stretch of the Pacific NW offers incredible riding and environment if one can find adequate income. Several forumites hail from this region and might be able to offer feedback.

Did you happen to specialize in law as it relates to the evolving medical/recreational pot industry? Skills in that area in that area will likely be in demand given recent CA ballot initiatives and apparent inclinations of the new US AG.

Best of luck in your next venture Willie!

Doesn't mofo specialize in marijuana law?

[EDS]

While not an easy thing for a new lawyer, and law students in particular, to determine, think about the type of practice you want to have - do you want a specialty (hard not to have one these days), do you want to litigate, do you want a transactional based practice, or is there a particular industry you are interested in (and even then you would want to think about whether you want to focus on regulatory issues, litigation matters or transactions)? Thinking about those questions may inform you as to legal markets that offer opportunities in areas you are interested in.

If you are not sure, maybe try and find something where you can dip your toes in a few different buckets and then, after a year or two, decide if there is something specific that moves the needle for you.

[Kirk007]

That stretch of Oregon you are looking at isn't easy for new lawyers as there are hundreds of lawyers being pumped out by the University of Oregon and Lewis and Clark (Portland) who don't want to leave. The firms are small, the business economy is not particulary great. When I taught at U of O I saw a lot of graduates end up hanging out their shingle in solo practices in Eugene and elsewhere. That doesn't mean you shouldn't look for a job there - the riding and lifestyle opportunities are wonderful but there will be a lot of competition for any available job.

The combination you seek is out there but it will come at a price - primarily in dollars earned. Only you can figure out what will work for you. The saner job, smaller market model is much easier if your spouse/partner is working at a good paying job and with a daughter on the way that may not be feasible at least immediately. Me, I was in private practice in Seattle and made enough that when our son was born my wife quit work and stayed home - that was a luxury. But private practice was wearing and not in line with my true values and passion - working to protect the environment. A decade after my son was born I jumped to the non-profit world, moved from Seattle to Eugene, trading most of my salary for sanity and passion and happiness, but it wasn't an easy transition and the economics have impacted our lives more than I calculated. It has all worked out in a good way, and I would do the same thing again today (but my wife honestly may have a different view).

Best of luck!

[ORMojo]

Kirk beat me to making my main point - Eugene, and much of the Willamette Valley, is notorious for law school grads from the Oregon law schools wanting to stay and practice here. That hasn't changed in the more than 50 years I've lived in the valley. And while I have a couple of close friends who are attorneys, they all agree that they have accepted much lower pay for the lifestyle. And a few of them, in private practice, seem constantly concerned about maintaining a sufficient client base due to the competition here.

[Stevemikesteve]

Not a lawyer but wanted to chime in and hopefully add some helpful points. I'm a Marriage and family therapist. Bulk of my experience has been with non-profit agencies, not private practice. I can't relate to the legal employment landscape of Eugene but leading up to my own recent Eugene job search, I had heard that it would be difficult for an outsider to secure something in Eugene in my field due to competition from U of O MFT Master's grads (a very reputable program) vying for the same spots. In my case though, probably talking about a much smaller student body compared to Oregon law school. But still, I was told it would be an uphill battle. It turned out to be very fruitful. I landed a Lane County position, which was my top choice, and everything's rosy. Fiancee and I will be there in about a month and a half. She's a CPA and actually flew up to Eugene this morning for 3 different final round interviews over the next couple days (yes 3!). Point here is, and again the legal employment landscape could be completely different, we were quite apprehensive about the possible hurdles of a smaller job market once we set our sites on Eugene (moving from San Diego, I'm a U of O grad from about 20 years ago). As things got rolling though, it was quite surprising how many options we had. There is some salary drop off but not by much (again, this piece could be totally different for law jobs). Good luck!

[ORMojo]

Originally Posted by Stevemikesteve

I landed a Lane County position, which was my top choice, and everything's rosy. Fiancee and I will be there in about a month and a half. She's a CPA and actually flew up to Eugene this morning for 3 different final round interviews over the next couple days (yes 3!).

Welcome to Eugene! Beautiful day for your fiancée to be here, although it is supposed hit 100 degrees on Saturday (frankly, I'm ready and looking forward to it!).

One thing about our job market right now - it perhaps is one of the best times for job seekers in recent memory. Lane County's unemployment rate in May 2017 was the lowest ever recorded since 1990 when seasonally-adjusted unemployment rates started being issued. It is currently 3.8%, down from 5.1% just a year ago. Lots of other indicators in the Eugene metropolitan area are about as rosy as I've seen them in quite some time.

Of course, this has ancillary effects - the housing market is booming and very, very tight. The number of pending home sales in May set a 16-year-record, and the county’s inventory of homes for sale fell to a record low of 1.6 months. And in April the average sales price hit an all-time high.

Personally, a friend that just closed on a house 2 months ago ended up paying more than the asking price - which pretty much used to be unheard of around here, but is being seen more and more. Zillow tells me that the value of my house has increased 72% in just the past 4.5 years, and over 10% in just the past year.

If you, or any others moving here, are looking to buy a house, I would be happy to recommend my realtor. Actually, I couldn't recommend or praise him highly enough. I've done something like 8 transactions with him over the past 15 years, and have connected him with many friends, who unanimously praise him after their transaction. Absolutely nothing in it for me, and I know he doesn't need the work, but you won't find a better agent, or nicer person.

[MerckxMad]

There's some good advice here. It sounds like what you're looking for would best be found in house. The problem is that companies with large enough legal departments to give you support and an opportunity to grow typically do not hire out of law school. My advice is to develop a skill set that you can sell to a boutique firm that will pay you well or an in house department that will give you the lifestyle you seek. Unfortunately, there are few shortcuts.

[Stevemikesteve]

Originally Posted by ORMojo

Welcome to Eugene!

Thanks! We're scrambling just to even RENT a place. To call it competitive is an understatement. But we've got a little over a month so that's a decent window and it should work out. But yes, for little old Eugene it is unbelievable. She and I are both very excited we pulled it off (and hopefully won't be living in a cardboard box!). I absolutely cannot wait to be riding up there again, been awhile....

[ofcounsel]

Originally Posted by MerckxMad

My advice is to develop a skill set that you can sell to a boutique firm that will pay you well or an in house department that will give you the lifestyle you seek. Unfortunately, there are few shortcuts.

This is also very good advice. And remember that oftentimes, the legal specialty one focuses on is one we often fall into.

For me, I "thought" I wanted to focus on labor and employment, until I got a taste of it as a 2nd year summer associate. During my 2nd year summer, I found I hated the actual practice of employment law, but I liked a couple of real estate assignments I received, so I focused on that out of law school.

Eventually, the real estate work I did as a 1st and 2nd year lawyer got me involved in land use entitlements and zoning issues. That in turn lead me to focus my understanding of the California Environmental Quality Act (the law requires state and local agencies to consider the potential environmental impacts of projects before the projects get approved). That, in turn, lead me to focus me on other environmental laws, including species protection, water quality and coastal protection. Now, I've pretty much left the real property stuff all together to other lawyers, while I focus on environmental law in the context of large scale infrastructure construction projects and maintenance of existing infrastructure (in the regulatory/transactional context... no litigation for me). I've also taught as an adjunct law school professor in my spare time.

I guess I tell you this in case you are freaked out about not knowing for sure what "area" you'll practice in. Sometimes, the opportunities you make for yourself can sometimes kind of lead you to the area you'll practice in. So don't worry too much if you don't have one yet. But be intentional in moving towards things if you have an interest, and moving away from them if you don't.

By the way... I work in Downtown LA and live in Orange County. Not quite as bucolic as the Northern Cal/Oregon coastline, but there is plenty of great riding here and significantly more legal jobs.

[54ny77]

I work alot with attorneys (who work at, as it's referred to in this thread, "big law") and I've never once heard that kind of general question among first years. There's usually an expectation of professional ambition, sucking it up, working your ass off and hoping to learn something useful and understand what the heck it is you're hired to do. And that's either as having been fortunate to have most of your tuition paid for by parents, or hustling with every spare ounce of energy while having 6 figures of student loan debt hanging over the head. And oh what's that thing you called riding? Yeah, try fitting in a training program when billing 2.5k+ hours a year.

I'm grumpy though, for whatever that's worth, and as a client I expect our attorney to be in his/her office when I call at 11 pm on a Saturday when necessity demands it. Because if I'm calling at that stupid hour it means I'm sitting in office too. And the last thing I want to be doing is wasting my time teaching a first year who knows nothing, all while billing out at $500/hr., how to deal with whatever it is that has to be dealt with. Which of course means that a 4th or 5th year is in the office as well providing oversight and the evening billable rate is pushing 5 figures....

Sorry for the crotchety perspective. Hopefully you can carve your niche and achieve a great work-life balance. Good luck!

[ofcounsel]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

.

I'm grumpy though, for whatever that's worth, and as a client I expect our attorney to be in his/her office when I at 11 pm on a Saturday when necessity demands it. Because if I'm calling at that stupid hour it means I'm sitting in office too. And the last thing I want to be doing is wasting my time teaching a first year who knows nothing, all while billing out at $500/hr., how to deal with whatever it is that has to be dealt with. Which of course means that a 4th or 5th year is in the office as well providing oversight and the evening billable rate is pushing 5 figures....

Sorry for the crotchety perspective. Hopefully you can carve your niche and achieve a great work-life balance. Good luck!

Funny thing is, I don't see that as grumpy. I think if one is a good, client-focused attorney, we have to acknowledge that we're in the "customer service" business. If my clients (as an in-house attorney, folks on the business side of our company are my "clients") are in the trenches working weekends, I expect no less than to be there with them. As an in-house lawyer, this happens much less often than it did at the law firm, but it still happens (and I often know it will well in advance, so I can plan for it). And likewise, if I'm working weekends, my $$$ Big Law lawyers I hire to help me are as well.

And yeah, it's hard to find a law job with "work/life" balance right out of school. Most of us bust our butts for the first few years before we find a job that allows for balance (while providing a salary commensurate with your expectations). And in retrospect, I learned a ton about being a good lawyer in those first few years at Big Law.