Braking Badly

[carpediemracing]

With all respect I'd look at your cornering technique, approach, etc. It's mainly cornering lines, not actual technique. With good cornering lines technique is much less significant, and with a minimum level of technique a rider can descend well.

On the other hand good technique with poor cornering lines = not a pleasant experience as the rider corners right into the guardrail.

I was really uncomfortable the first time I descended Palomar. I only get there once a year, maybe twice, and it's a long descent for me, something like 15 miles. It's 35 minutes of descending, about half of it the switchback stuff, the second half a bit more wide open.

The first time I did it, in 2005?, I actually had to stop because my hands were cramping. I realized later, after doing the descent a couple more times over the next couple years, that it was my fault. I was scared mid turn, nervous about building speed, had no confidence in my equipment. The last few descents of Palomar (one or two descents a year) I was fine and in fact I wished I could go faster. I'd mentally review each corner and there were many where I went way too conservative with speed.

On Palomar I've used older Ultegra brakes, Daytona single pivot, Record Skeleton, various pads (stock Ultegra, stock Campy, Koolstop, etc).

Of course I'm assuming that the roads aren't too crazy. There are some very steep, very tight roads near where I grew up in CT. You can't see the road as you approach the drop off, you can't see around the corner, and it's so tight that in a car you're limited to about 15-20 mph if you're flying. It's first gear stuff when going up the hill. I haven't seen a descent with more than 1-2 turns like that but if there was a mile or two of that then I can totally understand how the rider and brakes would be taxed to the limit.

[one60]

for about the same cost of Campy or Shimano pads...they really improve brake feel & add stopping power

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by donevwil

first, try some kool-stop salmon pads.

+1

[mktng]

Coming from dura ace 7800/7900. My Centaur skeleton brakes suck. They modulate speed like my vintage nuovo gran sport brakes. Yuck. Time for an upgrade, as I'm a slightly larger dude.

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by donevwil

first, try some kool-stop salmon pads. (. . .)

+2!

[gasman]

Look at your cornering technique. I ran Paul's cantis for years on my cross/commuter bike and I can assure you that your campy brakes have way more stopping power than the Paul's . Cantis' are not known for their great stopping power.

[lhuerta]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

With all respect I'd look at your cornering technique, approach, etc. It's mainly cornering lines, not actual technique. With good cornering lines technique is much less significant, and with a minimum level of technique a rider can descend well.

+1 on the above...and make sure that your front is your primary stopper and you are shifting body weight as well...finesse can alleviate the fading that you are experiencing.

You haven't told us how much you weigh? I know the road you describe well, from my days in CA and unless you are over 300 pounds the Campy calipers should provide plenty of stopping power. Also, are your calipers set-up with a a wide gap before pad meets rim, leaving you with now bite after minimal fade? You mentioned you cleaned brake surface on your rims, but did you remove the glaze an grime that builds up on your brake shoes?

My wider point is that there are a variety of rider and mechanical factors to consider, before giving up on your otherwise amazing Campagnolo calipers.

Lou

[brando]

Something's not right with your setup or your rims because campy skeleton dual-pivots work really well.

[Don49]

Thanks guys, useful comments all. I've made notes and ready to make some improvements in equipment and technique.

1) Got some SwissStop RacePro BXP Brake Pads coming in for my existing pre-skeleton brakes.

2) Retaping the bars with Fizik over cork (per the other thread) just for comfort.

3) Adjusting brakes so engagement is closer to the bars without bottoming out. Current engagement is too far out for my hands and is stressful.

4) Admitting this problem is mostly my timid technique due to a lack of confidence resulting from a crash while descending. I crashed and broke a collar bone when an ultralite tube ripped at a seam, front rim touched pavement and I was down. My riding buddy has commented on how much slower I am now when descending. Now I've got these thoughts going about tubes failing, CF steerer breaking, paved over pinecones in the chipseal, and I want to back off. Hopefully this will improve too.

[Ralph]

Don't feel bad. Decending fast scares the hell out of me also.

[pbarry]

Dragging a brake for long distances will glaze the pads more quickly than normal braking would. I de-glaze with a fine file, with the pads mounted, wheels removed. Keep the file flat to the brake surface. Takes a minute or two per pair.

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

On long steep descents, I've never had a brake that I get to the bottom and think, "Gee! that was easy, my hands aren't tired at all!"

the reality is, even a light cyclist descending on paved roads has huge amounts of potential energy that are converted into kinetic energy and then heat (through the brakes)...

it is a physically (as in physics, physical) demanding process.

if you solve it, let me know.

6,000 feet of elevation is a LOT of potential energy!

Disc brakes

[Lionel]

Originally Posted by Don49

4) Admitting this problem is mostly my timid technique due to a lack of confidence resulting from a crash while descending. I crashed and broke a collar bone when an ultralite tube ripped at a seam, front rim touched pavement and I was down. My riding buddy has commented on how much slower I am now when descending. Now I've got these thoughts going about tubes failing, CF steerer breaking, paved over pinecones in the chipseal, and I want to back off. Hopefully this will improve too.

Switch to tubulars.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Don49

4) Admitting this problem is mostly my timid technique due to a lack of confidence resulting from a crash while descending. I crashed and broke a collar bone when an ultralite tube ripped at a seam, front rim touched pavement and I was down. My riding buddy has commented on how much slower I am now when descending. Now I've got these thoughts going about tubes failing, CF steerer breaking, paved over pinecones in the chipseal, and I want to back off. Hopefully this will improve too.

There's some technique to this too, which I admit sounds weird and I say this as a fellow timid descender. As a bigger guy, I'll add speed like a freight train going down hills of any significant length. Particularly on unfamiliar descents, I'm not too keen on taking chances. But there's still some skill in feathering the brakes and regulating speed, taking the right lines through corners, even if a bit slower than your buddies...