Pedal stroke- toes down??

[Daveyk]

I was just fit by a reputable LBS and was diagnosed with a a toe down pedaling stroke. My saddle is now a tad lower than what I was used to. It was suggested that train myself to keep my heel down to become a stronger rider. Been out on three rides since and am almost ready to give up on this experiment.

[shovelhd]

The only time I consciously pedal toes down is when I am climbing out of the saddle.

[ultraman6970]

With some people the trick works with other ones it doesnt just because their style is toes down.

Originally Posted by Daveyk

I was just fit by a reputable LBS and was diagnosed with a a toe down pedaling stroke. My saddle is now a tad lower than what I was used to. It was suggested that train myself to keep my heel down to become a stronger rider. Been out on three rides since and am almost ready to give up on this experiment.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by merlincustom1

It's a non-issue. Your body gravitates to what's natural.

The bike is the rare case where a machine is controlling the movement of the user. Try to not pedal in a circle some time - good luck. My point is that the rider's pedal stroke is controlled at all times by the bottom bracket, crank and pedal, so the best pedal stroke looks just like the worst. That leads people to think that there's no skill, or it's a natural motion.

Is there a right way or a wrong way? Telling someone they pedal wrong is like insulting their mother - it doesn't go over well. So, I'll put it this way: Look at what you want to do, then look at how you're doing it. Does the method match the intended result? The answer isn't always clear. Take for example indoor Spinning vs. outdoor cycling - they sort of look like the same thing, but the intended results aren't. Spinning is about the workout, it's about burning calories while going nowhere. Cycling is about the efficient use of energy to get somewhere. They do things in Spinning that I would never do on my bike, but there's a reason.

The concept of finding the best way for any individual rider to pedal seems to elude most people - they all want to ride like their cycling hero, or look like some guy in a Rapha ad. I'm going to give you two concepts to think about: First, at any given point in the pedal stroke there are multiple muscle groups that can be used. Some are very efficient, some are not. Some are very strong with good blood flow, some are not. Second, your body has a defense mechanism called reciprocal inhibition - it doesn't want to fire opposing muscle groups. So, if the quads fire the hamstrings shut down, hip flexors shut down glutes... You can use this to your advantage (hip flexors shutting down the glutes as the pedal comes up the back of the circle) or to your disadvantage (going toes down brings in a chain of muscles which shut down the glutes).

Getting back to this common concept that there's no wrong way to pedal a bike, there's also this famous Eddy Merckx line, "ride lots" which people go by. Just ride a lot and try harder - that's what cycling is, right? I started working with triathletes last year, many of them come from a strong running background and try to adapt that to the bike. It doesn't really work, but they'll keep trying... Running is about planting a foot and moving the body forward, it's based on hamstring activation. Cycling uses this geared machine where the hamstrings are only the third strongest muscle group, they are also the longest and have the second worst system of mechanical advantage. In other words, running on the bike is only slightly more effective than swimming on the bike.

My suggestion is to spend some time this winter taking a close look at how you pedal the bike. Set up a video camera, watch what happens at high resistance, what happens at high cadence, slow it down and figure out how you're moving the pedals and how you're wasting energy. Ignore what everybody else is doing and concentrate on your own form. Make no assumptions...

For what it's worth, I scrutinize nobody's form more than my own. Assumptions I had made without even knowing I was making them have been proven wrong over and over. I've been coaching for 15 years, I did a bit or racing before that, yet in the past few years I've learned things that have made me both faster and more comfortable on the bike. It's almost never a question of if one little thing is wrong, it's a question of how it effects the whole system. It's all connected - trust me on that. I learned how to use the right muscle group to get the pedal over the top of the stroke and my back problems went away - it makes sense to me now, but who knew???

[Daveyk]

^^^^ Does this mean it is bad to pedal toes down, or that we should video tape and experiment ourselves to figure out what works? Or both.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by Daveyk

^^^^ Does this mean it is bad to pedal toes down, or that we should video tape and experiment ourselves to figure out what works? Or both.

Yes.




If you set up the bike on a trainer you can use the rear brake to hold the crank in any position. With that done you can figure out which direction the force should be applied (perpendicular to the crank arm), and which muscle is best used to apply this force. Hint: go by the physics of simple machines here, not what you think you can do - people swear they can push down with their quads, last I checked they extend the leg from the knee... With the pedal at 3:00 I like to use the trick of falling forward instead of trying to push down to engage the glutes. Once you have that, try going toes down and see if your glutes remain engaged...

Firing the calf muscles to hold a toes down position and being a bit toes down are not the same thing. Firing gastroc muscles is a learned motor skill from walking, only in walking you're not asking your glutes to extend from the hip. In cycling one shuts down the other. On the other hand, a static toes down position does no harm - you see that a lot in pedaling out of the saddle or when the seat angle is really steep, like in a tri position.

[jamesau]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

In other words, running on the bike is only slightly more effective than swimming on the bike.

Too funny. But seriously, thanks for all the other insight you always bring.

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

I learned how to use the right muscle group to get the pedal over the top of the stroke and my back problems went away - it makes sense to me now, but who knew???

I'd appreciate a brief elaboration on this.

[Ti Designs]

In training I've used machines at the gym to work individual muscle groups within the same range of motion as they are used on the bike. The leg extension machine is great for working the quads, but it's not the same range of motion. If you fire your quad, your foot swings around an arc centered at your knee. The pedal on the other hand swings around an ark made by the bottom bracket - that's not a battle you can win.

Few people I've talked to have understood the destructive forces here, so I'll equate it to something some people get. There's this thing in engine tuning called detonation (also known as preignition or knock) where thermal expansion of the fuel mixture happens before top dead center. The combination of the gasses expanding and the piston still moving up creates huge forces against both piston and cylinder. The rise rate and magnitude of this force is where damage happens, the only saving grace is that it's very short.

OK, back to the bike example. I built a test device to do a bit of resistance training on the bike. I took a huge chainring, attached a chain to one point and ran it straight back to a pulley and weight system. When I turned the pedal it raised a stack of weights, but I only had half a pedal stroke before I ran out of chainring - this was fine, I was only interested in about 90 degrees of that. My first try was a bit of a surprise because I forgot my bike and trainer weigh far less than weights, and there was nothing holding it in place. With that problem fixed I got on the bike, clipped in with one side and tried moving the pedal from 11:00 to 2:00. I have pedaled a bike before, but this was really the first time the pedal was pulling back. Normally your bike is a system of inertia, your weight going forward divided by the gear is your cadence. This time is was just my muscles vs. the load, and I was shocked to find out that I couldn't smoothly get the pedal over the top. I tested a few other people and found that they couldn't do it either. Then I bet a bunch of people $5 that they couldn't do it - I had to make up the money from building the test device...

I brought this problem to one of the labs at Harvard 'cause they like this sort of thing. We discussed the motion involved and the muscle recruitment involved, along with the forces involved and the programmed response. We also discussed known reciprocal inhibitions as I was pretty sure it was going to come down to that. There are two hip flexors you can use for hip flexion, the rectus femoris or the iliopsoas, but the rectus femoris and the vastus lateralis don't like to fire at the same time, probably because of their opposing use of the patella. So, in trying to get the pedal over the top there's a little battle between two muscles within the quads, one shutting the other off which resulted in the bouncing motion I saw on the test device.

If you know exactly what you need to learn, you can teach your body to do almost anything. It took me about two weeks to learn to flex my hip with just the iliopsoas, then extend at the knee smoothly. Getting back on the bike I found I was faster on the flats as I felt my quads kicking forward with full force. After a few weeks I noted that my back problems went away - it's a wonderful trade-off.

Getting back to the idea of detonation, or pushing down before 12:00, the vastus lateralis is the dominant muscle, so while I thought I was getting the pedal over the top, the hip flexor was shut down as I started to push forward at 11:00. If you look at the knee angle at 11:00, the force generated by the quads firing is below 45 degrees, into the pedal circle. The opposing force pushes the hip and effects the SI joint. Reduce that sharp impulse and the back problems go away...

[dnc]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

In training I've used machines at the gym to work individual muscle groups within the same range of motion as they are used on the bike. The leg extension machine is great for working the quads, but it's not the same range of motion. If you fire your quad, your foot swings around an arc centered at your knee. The pedal on the other hand swings around an ark made by the bottom bracket - that's not a battle you can win.

Few people I've talked to have understood the destructive forces here, so I'll equate it to something some people get. There's this thing in engine tuning called detonation (also known as preignition or knock) where thermal expansion of the fuel mixture happens before top dead center. The combination of the gasses expanding and the piston still moving up creates huge forces against both piston and cylinder. The rise rate and magnitude of this force is where damage happens, the only saving grace is that it's very short.

OK, back to the bike example. I built a test device to do a bit of resistance training on the bike. I took a huge chainring, attached a chain to one point and ran it straight back to a pulley and weight system. When I turned the pedal it raised a stack of weights, but I only had half a pedal stroke before I ran out of chainring - this was fine, I was only interested in about 90 degrees of that. My first try was a bit of a surprise because I forgot my bike and trainer weigh far less than weights, and there was nothing holding it in place. With that problem fixed I got on the bike, clipped in with one side and tried moving the pedal from 11:00 to 2:00. I have pedaled a bike before, but this was really the first time the pedal was pulling back. Normally your bike is a system of inertia, your weight going forward divided by the gear is your cadence. This time is was just my muscles vs. the load, and I was shocked to find out that I couldn't smoothly get the pedal over the top. I tested a few other people and found that they couldn't do it either. Then I bet a bunch of people $5 that they couldn't do it - I had to make up the money from building the test device...

I brought this problem to one of the labs at Harvard 'cause they like this sort of thing. We discussed the motion involved and the muscle recruitment involved, along with the forces involved and the programmed response. We also discussed known reciprocal inhibitions as I was pretty sure it was going to come down to that. There are two hip flexors you can use for hip flexion, the rectus femoris or the iliopsoas, but the rectus femoris and the vastus lateralis don't like to fire at the same time, probably because of their opposing use of the patella. So, in trying to get the pedal over the top there's a little battle between two muscles within the quads, one shutting the other off which resulted in the bouncing motion I saw on the test device.

If you know exactly what you need to learn, you can teach your body to do almost anything. It took me about two weeks to learn to flex my hip with just the iliopsoas, then extend at the knee smoothly. Getting back on the bike I found I was faster on the flats as I felt my quads kicking forward with full force. After a few weeks I noted that my back problems went away - it's a wonderful trade-off.

Getting back to the idea of detonation, or pushing down before 12:00, the vastus lateralis is the dominant muscle, so while I thought I was getting the pedal over the top, the hip flexor was shut down as I started to push forward at 11:00. If you look at the knee angle at 11:00, the force generated by the quads firing is below 45 degrees, into the pedal circle. The opposing force pushes the hip and effects the SI joint. Reduce that sharp impulse and the back problems go away...

Quote:
Originally Posted by #campyuserftw View Post
'And the toes pointed down'



"The sight of Jacques Anquetil on a bicycle gives credence to an idea we Americans find unpalatable, that of a natural aristocracy. From the first day he seriously straddled a top tube, "Anq" had a sense or perfection most riders spend a lifetime searching for. Between 1950, when he rode his first race, and nineteen years later, when he retired, Anquetil had countless frames underneath him, yet that indefinable poise was always there.

The look was that of a greyhound. His arms and legs were extended more than was customary in his era of pounded post World War Two roads. And the toes pointed down. Just a few years before, riders had prided their ankling motion, but Jacques was the first of the big gear school. His smooth power dictated his entire approach to the sport. Hands resting serenely on his thin Mafac brake levers, the sensation from Quincampoix, Normandy, appeared to cruise while others wriggled in desperate attempts to keep up."



Where did that smooth power come from, I am satisfied it was not from the circular style. He was content to win TT's by a second and to only push to the limit when it was absolutely necessary. For this maximal power his objective was to apply the greatest possible tangential crank force to his chain ring during its full rotation. To do this, each leg applied 180 degrees of this torque, starting at 11 with the equivalent of 2 o'c torque, this increased to maximal torque at 12 ,1 ,2 and 3 o'c and normal torque from there to 5 o'c. He had no dead spot sector in his technique. Simple, highly effective and undetectable, it took me several years to perfect but it was well worth it. As this has been explained over and over again on various forums, I will not be making any further comment here because as nobody would believe it, it would be another waste of time.

[dnc]

Originally Posted by dnc

Quote:
Originally Posted by #campyuserftw View Post
'And the toes pointed down'



"The sight of Jacques Anquetil on a bicycle gives credence to an idea we Americans find unpalatable, that of a natural aristocracy. From the first day he seriously straddled a top tube, "Anq" had a sense or perfection most riders spend a lifetime searching for. Between 1950, when he rode his first race, and nineteen years later, when he retired, Anquetil had countless frames underneath him, yet that indefinable poise was always there.

The look was that of a greyhound. His arms and legs were extended more than was customary in his era of pounded post World War Two roads. And the toes pointed down. Just a few years before, riders had prided their ankling motion, but Jacques was the first of the big gear school. His smooth power dictated his entire approach to the sport. Hands resting serenely on his thin Mafac brake levers, the sensation from Quincampoix, Normandy, appeared to cruise while others wriggled in desperate attempts to keep up."



Where did that smooth power come from, I am satisfied it was not from the circular style. He was content to win TT's by a second and to only push to the limit when it was absolutely necessary. For this maximal power his objective was to apply the greatest possible tangential crank force to his chain ring during its full rotation. To do this, each leg applied 180 degrees of this torque, starting at 11 with the equivalent of 2 o'c torque, this increased to maximal torque at 12 ,1 ,2 and 3 o'c and normal torque from there to 5 o'c. He had no dead spot sector in his technique. Simple, highly effective and undetectable, it took me several years to perfect but it was well worth it. As this has been explained over and over again on various forums, I will not be making any further comment here because as nobody would believe it, it would be another waste of time.

From Cyclingnews forum,
"There is no need to break down how it happens, I have already explained that."


" In outdoor tug o'war leg muscles are used in the same way as mashers use them in their downstroke, lower leg muscles are not used. With the indoor tug o'war two powerful forces have to be generated, downward to produce sufficient shoe/mat friction resistance and forward to drive the body backwards. Maximal use is made of lower leg musles. Because the cyclist's cleat replaces the need for shoe/mat friction, a cyclist can separate and merge these two powerful forces (forward and downward) for an extended powerful pedalling stroke from 11 to 5 o'c."

[jamesau]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

I brought this problem to one of the labs at Harvard ...

Zoinks and thanks! Would be nice to have a pacemaker of sorts hooked up to all the appropriate muscles and crank position - not sure if this would accelerate learning or just make one uber efficient while plugged in.

Sorry for the thread drift but it is the internet, after all!

[dnc]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

It's almost never a question of if one little thing is wrong, it's a question of how it effects the whole system. It's all connected - trust me on that. I learned how to use the right muscle group to get the pedal over the top of the stroke and my back problems went away - it makes sense to me now, but who knew???

Letter to Cyclingnews Jan 2002,

Rotor cranks

This is another of the expensive patented items of equipment that is
supposed to improve the normal imperfect pedaling style with it's
upper and lower dead spots and where maximum pressure can only be
applied at 3 o'clock approx.

The Rotor device speeds up the crank on its return to the upper dead
spot area and slows it down in the power zone. But you do not need new
equipment to perfect your pedaling technique, what you need is to
completely change your pedaling style. By switching to the technique
of J Anquetil, you can eliminate all dead spot areas and apply almost
continuous maximum chain drive power to the chainwheel throughout it's
entire circumference and it's free.

Another big disadvantage with the normal pedaling style is that it is
the main cause of all chronic cycling related lower back pain, by
placing all necessary strain in the lower back, Anquetil's technique
hinges all strain in the hips and completely eliminates this torture.

Noel Crowley

Respond to this letter

[wallymann]

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by dnc

By switching to the technique of J Anquetil, you can eliminate all dead spot areas and apply almost continuous maximum chain drive power to the chainwheel throughout it's entire circumference and it's free.

Step 1) Give up on how you pedal the bike.

Step 3) Pedal like Anquetil

It's step 2 that I'm not so sure about...

[dnc]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Step 1) Give up on how you pedal the bike.

Step 3) Pedal like Anquetil

It's step 2 that I'm not so sure about...

No, you learn a new technique for use in non climbing TT's. I use three, circular , mashing and the unknown semi circular, there is an ideal time or place for all of them. While you appear to be on the right track around TDC, we are using very different objectives and I would be careful raising that weight at 11. When pedalling our muscles are warmed up and we are applying our maximal force to an already fast moving target. As you said, if you know exactly what you need to learn, you can teach your body to do almost anything. I got the technique from the idea of biomechanically combining arm and leg muscles for increased power output. This also gives the necessary resistance for instant maximal torque at TDC. Because this is done discreetly, it cannot be copied.