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  #16  
Old 04-07-2016, 11:08 AM
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e-RICHIE e-RICHIE is offline
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Happy's words resonate with me. Much of this is a moving target, except for the fact that the frame can't be adjusted once built. Some components can move up, down, and fore/aft. But that's about it. Getting the full package, a bicycle that fits well, allows for some position changes, and also works well, looks good, and enables the client to feel good about the relationship and expenses involved - it's a leap of faith.


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Originally Posted by Happy F View Post
Let's start with a basic premise A bike fit is a snapshot in time. The body is perpetually changing. If you were to measure someone in the morning you would get different results in the evening. You have the change in height of between 1.5 and 2.5 centimeters over the course of the day .We talked about numbers like they were chiseled in stone. At best they're made of jello. What we need to do this and group is to find posture is and positions that are sustainable to our clients. That they can learn to self adjust over the course of a long ride. The more precise our ability to measure the less accurate we will be.When you are fitting you need to figure out what works for your client not what looks cool at the start line. Looking for what will make them come over the finish line looking and feeling good. An emphasis on the feeling good. And if we are really good feeling like doing it again tomorrow.


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https://www.hss.edu/rehab-staff_Freedman-Happy.asp
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  #17  
Old 04-07-2016, 01:03 PM
redir redir is offline
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In psychology there is a phenomenon called Reactivity. People tend to change their behavior due to the awareness that they are being observed.

I wonder if that is the case when some one is being fitted and they obviously KNOW they are being fitted. But then when you are out on a ride secretly observing their behavior they are acting normal and you catch them in the natural environment.
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  #18  
Old 04-07-2016, 01:58 PM
guido guido is offline
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Also known as the Observer effect...
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2016, 12:01 PM
nate2351 nate2351 is offline
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If someone is faking it on the trainer it usually comes out once they get warmed up. It helps that I have a computrainer to fit people on where I can slowly add 5-10 watts every few minutes. It's not like I'm taking people into threshold, but people pedal much differently at 50w than at 130w.
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  #20  
Old 04-11-2016, 02:39 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate2351 View Post
If someone is faking it on the trainer it usually comes out once they get warmed up. It helps that I have a computrainer to fit people on where I can slowly add 5-10 watts every few minutes. It's not like I'm taking people into threshold, but people pedal much differently at 50w than at 130w.
I've heard the same argument at every fit school - have 'em pedal for a while, increase the resistance, you'll see how they pedal... And as long as you never ride with them on the road, that sounds about right. Here's a question: Is 200w like riding up a hill or riding on a flat road? How I ride up hill and how I ride on the flats is very different. Maybe you could add or subtract to the flywheel and tip the bike up or down...

The bottom line is that you can't make assumptions about what happens on the road based on what you see on a trainer - the reasons almost don't matter, you just can't. Well you can, but in almost all cases you would be wrong. I've run into just as many reasons fitters don't want to ride with their clients. Much of it has to do with remaining the expert - fitters who can't ride or don't fit well on their bikes don't get much respect. And then there's the time argument - "we don't have time to ride with all of our clients". This may be true, but if what I'm saying is even close to being true, riding with a few of them is going to be eye opening.
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  #21  
Old 04-11-2016, 04:15 PM
ultraman6970 ultraman6970 is offline
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Thought happy was in DC.
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  #22  
Old 04-11-2016, 06:30 PM
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LJohnny LJohnny is offline
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Fitting sucks.

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Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
Thought happy was in DC.


Me thinks you are referring to Smiley...
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  #23  
Old 04-11-2016, 07:04 PM
nate2351 nate2351 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti Designs View Post
I've heard the same argument at every fit school - have 'em pedal for a while, increase the resistance, you'll see how they pedal... And as long as you never ride with them on the road, that sounds about right. Here's a question: Is 200w like riding up a hill or riding on a flat road? How I ride up hill and how I ride on the flats is very different. Maybe you could add or subtract to the flywheel and tip the bike up or down...

The bottom line is that you can't make assumptions about what happens on the road based on what you see on a trainer - the reasons almost don't matter, you just can't. Well you can, but in almost all cases you would be wrong. I've run into just as many reasons fitters don't want to ride with their clients. Much of it has to do with remaining the expert - fitters who can't ride or don't fit well on their bikes don't get much respect. And then there's the time argument - "we don't have time to ride with all of our clients". This may be true, but if what I'm saying is even close to being true, riding with a few of them is going to be eye opening.
Well, my fit bike does have incline, but it still doesn't perfectly simulate the road. Not like it matters, it's true that any trainer is a limitation. That's why we try to have follow up calls / emails. I think the biggest thing is communicating to clients that bike fit is not a one-and-done thing. Bodies are to adaptable for that to be the case. I'd love to do ride alongs with my clients but that isn't always feasible.
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2016, 02:59 PM
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cderalow cderalow is offline
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Fit using a combination of trainer and rollers?
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2016, 04:41 PM
nate2351 nate2351 is offline
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Fit using a combination of trainer and rollers?
That's assuming your clients can ride rollers.
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  #26  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:10 AM
sonnyhooper sonnyhooper is offline
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You need to get the right fit or you will have back problems. It can happen over time.

SH
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  #27  
Old 04-25-2016, 03:59 PM
Happy F Happy F is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate2351 View Post
If someone is faking it on the trainer it usually comes out once they get warmed up. It helps that I have a computrainer to fit people on where I can slowly add 5-10 watts every few minutes. It's not like I'm taking people into threshold, but people pedal much differently at 50w than at 130w.
Faking is such a HARSH TERM . And it's hard to fake good form if you don't have it. AS a fitter I look for things I can fix.
Most of my clients don't waste my my time performing poorly and then showing progress to earn my approval, I'm not a Freudian fitter
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2016, 07:22 AM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Hardware, software, firmware...

The bike frame is the hardware, you can replace it but you can't change what you have.

The fit is the firmware, the fitter can change seat position or hand positions within the limits of the hardware.

How the individual rides is the software, we're just a huge collection of motor skills in bike shorts.

The other element here is the body, or as I put it, that aging collection of injuries and poorly designed pivots that gets you around.

If we were building a widget of some sort, we would look at what needs to be built in hardware and what's better done in software, and what segments could be altered later in firmware. Somehow in bike fitting the bigger picture is lost, and people spend lots of time and money looking at one part of that in isolation, which is kinda pointless. Come to thing of it, the same thing happens in politics...

I've had a number of fittings done at fitting schools by the leading experts in fitting (that's what they say on their website) and all of them were so wrong that I wouldn't trust any fitter that went to one of those schools and drank the cool-aid. The mistake is always ignoring the software - how I ride the bike makes no difference to them. Look at what a high end fitting at one of the expensive studios consists of, it'll start with an interview where they ask about your injury history, then a physical assessment where they establish limits of range of motion. Then they put you on a fitting bike and set up the position with all of your injuries and limits in mind. Sounds about right, doesn't it? I've had my share of injuries including a back injury that kept me from walking for months, I'm a mess while walking around and I have no outward rotation at the hips, so I can't even clip out of pedals. At Retul I gave them a fighting chance, I set up their fit bike in my position. They told me that was all wrong, so they changed it. They moved the saddle forward 'cause their database says I should have my knee within 1cm of the pedal spindle, which put my center of gravity well past the pedal and much of my weight on the handlebars. So they shortened the top of the bike and raised my bars, which they said was better for my back. Oddly, this is the exact same thing that happened at every other fit school I've been to. Using frame finder they suggested I ride a Specialized Ruby in 54cm with 3cm of spacers and a 17 degree rise stem. I happen to work at a shop that sells Specialized, so I set up that bike and gave it a try. If this is what good fitters do to people, I would like to be called something else...

The problem is the software plays a huge role in how the individual rides. If you want to see that, watch them ride on the road.
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  #29  
Old 10-22-2016, 06:44 AM
Ali1989 Ali1989 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti Designs View Post
I I was thinking of telling him to go back to the shop that did the fitting and demand his money back, 'cept I did the fitting.
Actually laughed out loud at that line.
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  #30  
Old 10-27-2016, 12:05 PM
fthefox fthefox is offline
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Fitting has become a lucrative source of income for bike stores. A professional who is qualified in his field should receive a payment for his services. We all know bike stores that screwed up a fit. It is human error. The least they can do is remedy the situation.

Lots of parameters can affect fitting: level of fitness at the time, trainer vs real riding, experience of the rider and experience of the fitter.

I can not ride my bike the way I used to ride it because I am not fit any more, carry an excess of 20 lbs and had health issues... ;-) As a consequence, my fit has evolved.

Last edited by fthefox; 10-27-2016 at 12:07 PM.
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