Pedal stroke- toes down??

[sjbraun]

I went for a 45 mile ride with my wife this morning. She's trying get back in cycling shape so we can enjoy the El Grupo Fall Fundo in mid-November. (Due to some ridiculous work demands, she pretty much gave up riding for the last year.) Riding behind her today, I noticed her toes point down at the bottom of her pedal stroke. In contrast, my foot is pretty flat at the bottom of the pedal rotation.

Do pointed toes impede her? Not sure if I should try to "correct" a bad habit/fit or if cyclists simply have different pedaling styles.

Thanks

-Steve

For more info on El Grupo, follow the link. They are an outstanding youth cycling organization and add considerably to the cycling culture in Tucson

http://www.elgrupocycling.org/

[FlashUNC]

Pointed toes worked for this guy, who seemed to do well for himself...

[berserk87]

I have seen a lot of different pedaling styles over the years. As people differ in their anatomical makeup, I think that pedaling style is an individual thing.

That being said, there are some riders out there that might benefit from some tweaking, particularly if they are having pain with the way they are currently set up.

You can see a wide variety of toes down vs. flat foot in the pro peloton, and those folks can all ride.

What is best a compromise between the position maximizes efficiency and/or power output, but allows for comfort enough to be able ride for whatever time period is required.

[thirdgenbird]

I ride toes down too. I think I read somewhere that it is a trait more common in women than men.

This guy seems to make it work:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=azgKCHhcsBc

[carpediemracing]

My wife started with a really toes down position. After some gentle suggestions she rode with a bit more of a flat foot, still toes down but not like a ballet dancer "en pointe".

The main reason for the change was that she was cramping her calves. With more of a flat position, still toes down mind you, it got a lot better.

I'm guessing that if a woman wears heels her tendency will be to have a more accentuated toes down position. It seems that wearing heels regularly reduces calf flexibility.

The Missus doesn't wear heels normally but she had pretty dramatic foot surgery as a child so her feet are a bit messed up.

[Coluber42]

My better half rides with his toes pointed down, and it doesn't seem to cause him problems. I guess it's just what you're used to; but if the lowers his saddle to where he'd even be able to ride flat footed, his knees bother him. Maybe it's because he hasn't made a concerted effort to change it, but it's just how he rides. I ride with my feet flat, and interestingly, the difference is enough that he likes his saddle slightly higher than I like mine, even though my inseam is a good bit longer. Go figure.
If nothing hurts, I wouldn't worry about it. Toes down does make you less likely to have problems with toe overlap with the front wheel, or kicking panniers in the back. I suspect that some folks who ride toes-down got in that habit as a result of one of those things.

[merlincustom1]

It's a non-issue. Your body gravitates to what's natural.

[ultraman6970]

Could be her style or could be that she is seated too high. Seen guys that pedal like your wife tho, but if she is doing ballerina type of toe down I would call that really "interesting" tho.

W/o telling her lower the saddle like 1 cm and see what happens if the pedaling goes better and she starts kicking butt... then dont touch that saddle high no more hehehe

[dogdriver]

Another tidbit-- watch her hips (stop laughing). If they're rocking, I'd lower her saddle a bit. If they're stable, she likes to point her toes when she pedals.

[leftyfreak]

Originally Posted by merlincustom1

It's a non-issue. Your body gravitates to what's natural.

I think it's far more accurate to say that the body learns physical patterns, and makes them habitual. The familiar pattern is what feels "natural" but there is absolutely no guarantee that this learned habit is the best approach for a given task. To give an example, I teach saxophone, and all students have to learn to finger the instrument. If I were to never teach them correct fingering technique, a small number would just happen to do it well, with relaxed digits and no wasted motion, but many more would move their fingers stiffly and hold their fingers three inches above the keys. All these students are playing "naturally" but only a few fall into a pattern that is ideal without instruction. "Natural" is just habit, nothing more or less. The few people who intuitively fall into a habit that is the most efficient, ideal circumstance, are either just fortunate or are outliers who are unusually attuned to their physical processes and can self-correct in a way that most can't. The good news for the rest of us is that with good instruction, we can learn better habits.

As for the toes down query by the OP, I was taught that keeping the foot flat, and pressing the foot into the whole sole of the shoe to transfer power, is the most efficient way to pedal. Toes down is particularly problematic at the top of the pedal stroke however. This was demonstrated to me when I was on a trainer. By simply putting his index finger on the toe of my shoe, my coach was able to prevent me from pushing the pedal over the top of the pedal stroke. In the toes down position, I was relying on the little muscles along the front of the shin, and that doesn't work so well. With a flat foot, you can kick forward with the quads, and that works much better.

Of course, the OP didn't mention if the toes down situation presented itself at the top of the pedal stroke as well as at the bottom...

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by merlincustom1

It's a non-issue. Your body gravitates to what's natural.

The bike is the rare case where a machine is controlling the movement of the user. Try to not pedal in a circle some time - good luck. My point is that the rider's pedal stroke is controlled at all times by the bottom bracket, crank and pedal, so the best pedal stroke looks just like the worst. That leads people to think that there's no skill, or it's a natural motion.

Is there a right way or a wrong way? Telling someone they pedal wrong is like insulting their mother - it doesn't go over well. So, I'll put it this way: Look at what you want to do, then look at how you're doing it. Does the method match the intended result? The answer isn't always clear. Take for example indoor Spinning vs. outdoor cycling - they sort of look like the same thing, but the intended results aren't. Spinning is about the workout, it's about burning calories while going nowhere. Cycling is about the efficient use of energy to get somewhere. They do things in Spinning that I would never do on my bike, but there's a reason.

The concept of finding the best way for any individual rider to pedal seems to elude most people - they all want to ride like their cycling hero, or look like some guy in a Rapha ad. I'm going to give you two concepts to think about: First, at any given point in the pedal stroke there are multiple muscle groups that can be used. Some are very efficient, some are not. Some are very strong with good blood flow, some are not. Second, your body has a defense mechanism called reciprocal inhibition - it doesn't want to fire opposing muscle groups. So, if the quads fire the hamstrings shut down, hip flexors shut down glutes... You can use this to your advantage (hip flexors shutting down the glutes as the pedal comes up the back of the circle) or to your disadvantage (going toes down brings in a chain of muscles which shut down the glutes).

Getting back to this common concept that there's no wrong way to pedal a bike, there's also this famous Eddy Merckx line, "ride lots" which people go by. Just ride a lot and try harder - that's what cycling is, right? I started working with triathletes last year, many of them come from a strong running background and try to adapt that to the bike. It doesn't really work, but they'll keep trying... Running is about planting a foot and moving the body forward, it's based on hamstring activation. Cycling uses this geared machine where the hamstrings are only the third strongest muscle group, they are also the longest and have the second worst system of mechanical advantage. In other words, running on the bike is only slightly more effective than swimming on the bike.

My suggestion is to spend some time this winter taking a close look at how you pedal the bike. Set up a video camera, watch what happens at high resistance, what happens at high cadence, slow it down and figure out how you're moving the pedals and how you're wasting energy. Ignore what everybody else is doing and concentrate on your own form. Make no assumptions...

For what it's worth, I scrutinize nobody's form more than my own. Assumptions I had made without even knowing I was making them have been proven wrong over and over. I've been coaching for 15 years, I did a bit or racing before that, yet in the past few years I've learned things that have made me both faster and more comfortable on the bike. It's almost never a question of if one little thing is wrong, it's a question of how it effects the whole system. It's all connected - trust me on that. I learned how to use the right muscle group to get the pedal over the top of the stroke and my back problems went away - it makes sense to me now, but who knew???

[Daveyk]

^^^^ Does this mean it is bad to pedal toes down, or that we should video tape and experiment ourselves to figure out what works? Or both.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by Daveyk

^^^^ Does this mean it is bad to pedal toes down, or that we should video tape and experiment ourselves to figure out what works? Or both.

Yes.




If you set up the bike on a trainer you can use the rear brake to hold the crank in any position. With that done you can figure out which direction the force should be applied (perpendicular to the crank arm), and which muscle is best used to apply this force. Hint: go by the physics of simple machines here, not what you think you can do - people swear they can push down with their quads, last I checked they extend the leg from the knee... With the pedal at 3:00 I like to use the trick of falling forward instead of trying to push down to engage the glutes. Once you have that, try going toes down and see if your glutes remain engaged...

Firing the calf muscles to hold a toes down position and being a bit toes down are not the same thing. Firing gastroc muscles is a learned motor skill from walking, only in walking you're not asking your glutes to extend from the hip. In cycling one shuts down the other. On the other hand, a static toes down position does no harm - you see that a lot in pedaling out of the saddle or when the seat angle is really steep, like in a tri position.

[jamesau]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

In other words, running on the bike is only slightly more effective than swimming on the bike.

Too funny. But seriously, thanks for all the other insight you always bring.

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

I learned how to use the right muscle group to get the pedal over the top of the stroke and my back problems went away - it makes sense to me now, but who knew???

I'd appreciate a brief elaboration on this.

[Ti Designs]

In training I've used machines at the gym to work individual muscle groups within the same range of motion as they are used on the bike. The leg extension machine is great for working the quads, but it's not the same range of motion. If you fire your quad, your foot swings around an arc centered at your knee. The pedal on the other hand swings around an ark made by the bottom bracket - that's not a battle you can win.

Few people I've talked to have understood the destructive forces here, so I'll equate it to something some people get. There's this thing in engine tuning called detonation (also known as preignition or knock) where thermal expansion of the fuel mixture happens before top dead center. The combination of the gasses expanding and the piston still moving up creates huge forces against both piston and cylinder. The rise rate and magnitude of this force is where damage happens, the only saving grace is that it's very short.

OK, back to the bike example. I built a test device to do a bit of resistance training on the bike. I took a huge chainring, attached a chain to one point and ran it straight back to a pulley and weight system. When I turned the pedal it raised a stack of weights, but I only had half a pedal stroke before I ran out of chainring - this was fine, I was only interested in about 90 degrees of that. My first try was a bit of a surprise because I forgot my bike and trainer weigh far less than weights, and there was nothing holding it in place. With that problem fixed I got on the bike, clipped in with one side and tried moving the pedal from 11:00 to 2:00. I have pedaled a bike before, but this was really the first time the pedal was pulling back. Normally your bike is a system of inertia, your weight going forward divided by the gear is your cadence. This time is was just my muscles vs. the load, and I was shocked to find out that I couldn't smoothly get the pedal over the top. I tested a few other people and found that they couldn't do it either. Then I bet a bunch of people $5 that they couldn't do it - I had to make up the money from building the test device...

I brought this problem to one of the labs at Harvard 'cause they like this sort of thing. We discussed the motion involved and the muscle recruitment involved, along with the forces involved and the programmed response. We also discussed known reciprocal inhibitions as I was pretty sure it was going to come down to that. There are two hip flexors you can use for hip flexion, the rectus femoris or the iliopsoas, but the rectus femoris and the vastus lateralis don't like to fire at the same time, probably because of their opposing use of the patella. So, in trying to get the pedal over the top there's a little battle between two muscles within the quads, one shutting the other off which resulted in the bouncing motion I saw on the test device.

If you know exactly what you need to learn, you can teach your body to do almost anything. It took me about two weeks to learn to flex my hip with just the iliopsoas, then extend at the knee smoothly. Getting back on the bike I found I was faster on the flats as I felt my quads kicking forward with full force. After a few weeks I noted that my back problems went away - it's a wonderful trade-off.

Getting back to the idea of detonation, or pushing down before 12:00, the vastus lateralis is the dominant muscle, so while I thought I was getting the pedal over the top, the hip flexor was shut down as I started to push forward at 11:00. If you look at the knee angle at 11:00, the force generated by the quads firing is below 45 degrees, into the pedal circle. The opposing force pushes the hip and effects the SI joint. Reduce that sharp impulse and the back problems go away...