Are Richard Sachs frames not a draw anymore?

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by classtimesailer

I think somebody thought a road bike/frame was a good investment.

I agree. I think in the past 5 years, with all these new builders coming up, a lot of people jumped in and bought multiple bikes from multiple builders, thinking that the idea of exclusive singularity would make a frame valuable. Its just not the case. Also, I think a lot of people with thick fleets of multiple custom bikes that go barely ridden are starting to want to turn bikes over to get into the gravel/adventure/multipurpose place and want collateral to do that, or that bikes are simply wasting away when they're not being ridden.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by quauhnahuac

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

What's going on? Nothing. I don't think Richard Sachs is hurting. It is my understanding his wait list is "closed," and supposedly, if you're on it, there's like a 6+ year wait. Further, I also understand he is getting like $6K for a frameset. RS is not hurting.

Now, if you're talking used, then it's what the market bears. But, like others have stated, most RS are "custom" and not everyone fits the same size or geometry. So, used is what comes out at any given time and whether those watching happen upon it and can fit that size.

I'm getting a new custom steel frameset. But it will not be from Sachs, I don't have time to wait! Good Luck!

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Well said.

exactly. glad someone said it.

[happycampyer]

For comparison purposes, a pristine, lugged Bedford just sold on ebay for $514. In the classifieds here, the price of a white lugged Zanc has recently been reduced to $925. A blue metallic Zanc was recently listed at $1,100. Some lugged Kirks appear to have moved in the $1,500 range. More recent lugged Hampstens seem to be similarly priced.

Imo the market in general for used bikes is soft and has been for some time. In the grand scheme of things, I would argue that Sachs frames hold their value pretty well.

I own a number of bikes, and have ridden lots of others. I love the way steel bikes look (especially lugged steel), but I generally don't like the way they ride (actually, the brief ride I took on Tim P's Jeagher made me think seriously about ordering one). I have a second-hand CSi and a second-hand Sachs that I keep because, other than the Jeagher, they are the best-riding steel bikes I've ever ridden. If I sold them both, I would expect the Sachs to fetch 3 - 4x the price of the Serotta, even though the ride qualities are very similar.

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by PQJ

Admittedly, it's a data point of one, but I was smitten the first time I saw one, before I had any clue who the guy with the Jewish-sounding name on the down tube was. I distinctly remember thinking "hmm, Jewish frame builder?"

What TF?!?

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

+1...I can't call him a friend, but I'll say he's a mensch. The guy advertises and markets well, shouldn't we admire that? He has his reputation for a reason, and his bikes are beautiful.

[bcroslin]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

This.

Anyone who owns their own business realizes pretty quickly that marketing and advertising play a key role in being successful. It used to be that you would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a print ad in a magazine and hope someone saw it. Now, social media allows folks like e-richie to market directly to his customers and see almost in real time who he's reaching. The people who I've run into in my line of work who complain about shameless self-promotion are generally the ones that are either bad at marketing their services or are just plain lazy and expect the world to come to them.

As far as used prices go, IMO this forum is a terrible place to sell high end bikes of any kind and I type that with all due respect. It seems like the only things that sell quickly are goods that are priced to move. I've sold several items recently for more on eBay than I was asking here in the classifieds. I even lowered the price on items here in the classifieds to take into consideration seller fees on eBay and the best I've gotten is a few low-ball offers. The PL classifieds should not be used as a barometer for used bike prices.

[Big Dan]

All because one used frame?
Tough crowd.

[Aaron O]

I don't understand people who run down RS for actually knowing the business side of the BUSINESS better than some others. With respect to the "art", let's be honest here...how many of us want to toil away for the sake of craft with no reward?

Let's take the guys who are regarded as the very best of the best...Mr. Kirk, Mr. Sachs, Bruce Gordon, Mr. Weigle (any of your faves left off, sorry...but there's lots of talent out there). The guys who have been doing this, and doing it well, for decades. They survive the trends and they often shape them. I haven't seen RS's tax return...but given his lofty position...one built over DECADES...compare his likely financial bounty to most others at the top of their craft. A dentist, a framer...etc. The truth is that, given the expertise and quality, frames from guys like this are, comparatively a bargain. They should make some money...and if RS is able to sell some other stuff and make some bank, GOOD!

I think part of the "problem" is that the skill set and mind that often makes a great frame builder is often not the same skill set that leads to a great business man. There isn't enough money to have partnerships of the two....so a lot of the time very skilled builders don't get the business side and don't have someone to guide them through it. Shouldn't we be happy that RS has had success at both, and been able to show some others in the industry how that's done?

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by bcroslin

This.

Anyone who owns their own business realizes pretty quickly that marketing and advertising play a key role in being successful. It used to be that you would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a print ad in a magazine and hope someone saw it. Now, social media allows folks like e-richie to market directly to his customers and see almost in real time who he's reaching. The people who I've run into in my line of work who complain about shameless self-promotion are generally the ones that are either bad at marketing their services or are just plain lazy and expect the world to come to them.

As far as used prices go, IMO this forum is a terrible place to sell high end bikes of any kind and I type that with all due respect. It seems like the only things that sell quickly are goods that are priced to move. I've sold several items recently for more on eBay than I was asking here in the classifieds. I even lowered the price on items here in the classifieds to take into consideration seller fees on eBay and the best I've gotten is a few low-ball offers. The PL classifieds should not be used as a barometer for used bike prices.

^^ This. Over the last several years, the civility of the Paceline in general has deteriorated precipitously, and the classifieds have been overrun with bottom-feeders. I have sold a fair amount of stuff here in years past, but now mainly just offer things to people I know (either personally or virtually) via pm.

[eddief]

ATMO-sphere. As can be seen in this thread. He don't care what we think. And that's ok.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Originally Posted by quauhnahuac

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

None have been a 55. Three empty pegs in the cave to complete the so called bucket list. An RS is one of them.

[PQJ]

Originally Posted by mistermo

What TF?!?

I'm Jewish. ATMO (sorry, couldn't resist), "Sachs" is a Jewish-sounding name. And thus it is that I thought it was cool that a (possible) member of my tribe happened to build bicycles which I liked the look of. That's it.

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by eddief

ATMO-sphere. As can be seen in this thread. He don't care what we think. And that's ok.

Exactly. He could NOT care less, and that's fine.

[Corso]

I believe a steel bike made by any craftsman will fetch a bigger re-sale than the sea of plastic-mold bikes that are “new-with loaded features”.

To answer the OP’s question: a Sachs frame is and will always be “wanted”.