Boyd’s Woven Carbon Rims

[homagesilkhope]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

Rim brake tubulars and we can talk.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[2000m2]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

Rim brake tubulars and we can talk.

Originally Posted by nicrump

I'll give you the history right here. Braided(or not) over (lost)wax w/RTM in a closed mold was developed in the 90's in Wichita KS by... his name escapes me and in a few days I'll remember the shops name and report back. While working with Nimble, we purchased the right to the tech and were molding the crosswind and the fly long before Y2K. The technology was being used in the aerospace industry at the time and by 2 other bike companies that I know of, Time and Cannondale. Both were in collaboration on forks using this tech. Pretty sure Cannondales last use of the tech was the six-13, the alumunum lugged bit with RTM co-molded tubes. Time of course reeks of the technology.

I'm sure there is some academic difference to claim "first", who cares if the end result is good.

Ah... Fiber Dynamics was the Company. Darren Teeter ran the place and I'm still trying to recall the engineers name. I might even be able to find a pic of us working together.

Neat history

Originally Posted by homagesilkhope

Took the words right out of my mouth.

x3 for rim brake tubulars

[cash05458]

Originally Posted by coachboyd

We will be doing rim brake rims. . .eventually.

Once all the machinery comes in we will be getting started on gradually moving all production. We have one RTM injection machine as we start which will have disc brake resin. Once we get stable and the disc brake models produced we will then swap out the resin for rim brake worthy resin.

Don't worry, we won't leave the rim brake fans hanging. . .myself included.

Also, we will be making hooked rims for road. You're welcome.

my ears thank you ....

[krooj]

Originally Posted by coachboyd

We will be doing rim brake rims. . .eventually.

Once all the machinery comes in we will be getting started on gradually moving all production. We have one RTM injection machine as we start which will have disc brake resin. Once we get stable and the disc brake models produced we will then swap out the resin for rim brake worthy resin.

Don't worry, we won't leave the rim brake fans hanging. . .myself included.

Also, we will be making hooked rims for road. You're welcome.

Boyd, are you planning on a hooked design? Also, this is essentially going to be the same thing Munich Composites makes for Schmolke and Tune, right?

[windsurfer]

Fiber Dynamics is still around making some really cool stuff.

[DRietz]

Originally Posted by krooj

Boyd, are you planning on a hooked design? Also, this is essentially going to be the same thing Munich Composites makes for Schmolke and Tune, right?

Your hooked rim question is answered at the bottom of his post!

[krooj]

Originally Posted by DRietz

Your hooked rim question is answered at the bottom of his post!

Phew - this is what happens when I post while being exhausted and picking up replies I had started hours prior

[Epicus07]

Do we have a price or eta yet ?

[cgolvin]

I, for one, am grateful that folks like coachboyd, nicrump, Dave Kirk, and others are willing to engage here and provide their insights. Just another reason to treasure The Paceline. Thanks folks.

[krooj]

I just realized that I still have a set of R45 20/24 NOS hubs with a Campy driveshell sitting in a parts box. Count me in for a set of the rim brake hoops when they're available.

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by htwoopup

Don’t mean to be snarky…especially about someone who makes rims I have owned and like.

But it makes me crazy when someone claims to be first in something when they are actually late to the game.

I’d wager that they will look like the wheels Falcon Composites made for my Crumpton five years ago using the braided tech (braided tube, wax core, and RTM) that it sounds like Boyd is going to use.

Your hate might be misplaced; it sounds like the technology being described here is using a braiding machine to weave onto wax mold, which is different from utilizing an off the shelf woven sleeve.

Perhaps you can make the argument that there isn't much to gain from a custom weave for something that sees fairly uniform forces, but it's not really the same.

Found this screenshot from the press release:


https://bikerumor.com/video-time-sho...manufacturing/

[htwoopup]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Your hate might be misplaced; it sounds like the technology being described here is using a braiding machine to weave onto wax mold, which is different from utilizing an off the shelf woven sleeve.

Perhaps you can make the argument that there isn't much to gain from a custom weave for something that sees fairly uniform forces, but it's not really the same.

Found this screenshot from the press release:

<SNIP>

No hate from me. I was just pointing out that the article said “first” and as Nic confirmed, it is a tech that has been used for some time.

I am not an engineer, just been using stuff (in bikes and boats) with various forms of braided fiber and resins/agents made in varous methods of manufacturing over the last half century or so.

I think you are putting the accent on the wrong syllable.

The key is that one engineers the fibers to be laid in a certain way for the purpose and then a resin/hardening/ etc agents are added along with pressure to “set” those fibers and the associated stiffening agent in a way so that they are structurally manufactured so that the end result is a product as engineered.

The syllable that is important is the wax and removal of it combined with the fiber methodology.

Simplistically, this allows the rim to be manufactured in a way that delivers a finished product which is closer and more probably exact to what was engineered.

The other methods used by the other “name” carbon wheel (and spar in sailing) manufacturers that don’t used the wax/RTM method results in a more uneven resin application which leaves more/less weight in some areas and/or differing structural integrity in spots than was originally intended.

For a wheel which travels in circles, the goal is consistency (if that is the right word in trying to explain it) around the whole structure.

That’s a simplistic explanation of the method differentiation.

And, as I said, no hate. I love the methodology. That’s why I bought wheels made that way a few years ago and have put my butt on boats 100 miles out in the ocean with critical parts built this way. And we have all probably flown on planes that have used the tech in some way. My issue was with a statement in the article not with Boyd. I own Boyd wheels (from the OG methods) and love them.

[Spoker]

That Time video is impressive.
No reason to call such a carbon frame as coming from a waffle iron.
Has always been the frame I wanted.

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by htwoopup

No hate from me. I was just pointing out that the article said “first” and as Nic confirmed, it is a tech that has been used for some time.

I am not an engineer, just been using stuff (in bikes and boats) with various forms of braided fiber and resins/agents made in varous methods of manufacturing over the last half century or so.

I think you are putting the accent on the wrong syllable.

The key is that one engineers the fibers to be laid in a certain way for the purpose and then a resin/hardening/ etc agents are added along with pressure to “set” those fibers and the associated stiffening agent in a way so that they are structurally manufactured so that the end result is a product as engineered.

The syllable that is important is the wax and removal of it combined with the fiber methodology.

Simplistically, this allows the rim to be manufactured in a way that delivers a finished product which is closer and more probably exact to what was engineered.

The other methods used by the other “name” carbon wheel (and spar in sailing) manufacturers that don’t used the wax/RTM method results in a more uneven resin application which leaves more/less weight in some areas and/or differing structural integrity in spots than was originally intended.

For a wheel which travels in circles, the goal is consistency (if that is the right word in trying to explain it) around the whole structure.

That’s a simplistic explanation of the method differentiation.

And, as I said, no hate. I love the methodology. That’s why I bought wheels made that way a few years ago and have put my butt on boats 100 miles out in the ocean with critical parts built this way. And we have all probably flown on planes that have used the tech in some way. My issue was with a statement in the article not with Boyd. I own Boyd wheels (from the OG methods) and love them.

Okay but why are you ignoring the whole custom loom part of it?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Okay but why are you ignoring the whole custom loom part of it?

I suspect the custom (automated) loom is the key to this operation. A common way to build carbon rims is to laying pre-cut carbon layers into a mold, which requires a lot of hand labor. So choosing where to build a factory to do carbon molding can depend a lot on the local labor rates. This is why so much carbon component manufacturing had been moved to Asian countries, where labor rates are generally cheaper. But when manufacturing is highly automated, requiring less human labor, manufacturing may instead be moved to locations which improve efficiencies in other aspects of the supply chain (such as shipping, warehousing, customer support, etc.). So for the North American market, it may be cost effective to locate a highly automated carbon rim manufacturing plant in North America.